Half the Patients on Some London AIDS Wards Were Irish. Why Didn’t We Know?

00:00:00: Southcast World, hello.

00:00:01: Now this week a part of queer history that's barely being told during the AIDS crisis and we've heard about that from a number different perspectives.

00:00:10: down in years haven't we?

00:00:11: but never I think from this perspective as many are half-the patients on some London wards were Irish.

00:00:20: Homosexuality remained illegal in Ireland until nineteen ninety-three and many queer Irish people came to Britain seeking safety, acceptance and frankly

00:00:30: health

00:00:30: care.

00:00:32: Mammy's house turns that history into a new black comedy built from real testimony.

00:00:37: And today I'm lucky enough to be joined by co writer and performer Derek Murphy and priest and veteran AIDS activist Bernard Lynch whose own story helps shape.

00:00:48: When Faraj says jump, Labour might say how high.

00:00:53: And it's not

00:00:53: true.

00:00:54: It is offering

00:00:54: people false hope.

00:00:55: Sex Fating apps have become

00:00:59: a breeding ground for the worst of human behaviours and culture.

00:01:04: What do you want from me?

00:01:05: We get together to be simple Simple

00:01:08: Be simple.

00:01:09: for me He will like go nush himself off.

00:01:12: This Is Outcast

00:01:14: World.

00:01:17: Where did the idea for Mammy's house start, and why now in particular?

00:01:23: It actually started quite a few years ago.

00:01:26: Now it was back in twenty-twenty The year that we all I think would rather forget Very early on in the very first lockdown completely by random happened upon to talk online being given by Dr.

00:01:43: Joseph Healy, and it was about LGBT Irish migrants during the AIDS crisis.

00:01:48: And I had sort of never heard of The AIDS Crisis from an Irish point-of view before.

00:01:52: so i found just the topic very interesting.

00:01:54: So I went to this online talk and listened to joseph's and the Information that they were giving like absolutely blew me away.

00:02:02: It really did shock me Like some other things are saying where?

00:02:07: That somebody aids wards In London, during the eighties had fifty percent Irish people in them.

00:02:14: Homosexuality obviously was illegal in Ireland until nineteen ninety three and so a lot of people who needed to get any health care sort-of have to leave Ireland try and get any healthcare.

00:02:25: So a lot this kind stuff really did surprise me.

00:02:29: I went right?

00:02:30: This is interesting.

00:02:30: i'll go off see if can do research about it find out more.

00:02:35: there's very little.

00:02:36: There's not a lot of information out there about it.

00:02:40: We hear things like It's a Sin, the program that was on couple years ago and it did amazing things for the queer community.

00:02:54: but one thing somebody commented is unusual because actually wouldn't have been accurate at this time.

00:03:05: So I just found it really interesting and thought, right.

00:03:07: well if nobody's telling this story we will.

00:03:11: And now here we are!

00:03:12: Someone has got to do it?

00:03:15: Really didn't know that fact.

00:03:16: you've told me about fifty percent of the people on some of the AIDS wards in the eighties London were from Ireland but i guess... The reasons your giving there makes perfect sense doesn'it?

00:03:27: You an Amy our childhood friends form Cork.

00:03:30: so how did shape their writing?

00:03:32: I think it's quite easy because obviously she is one of my best friends and has been for many, many years.

00:03:37: So working together is quite easy.

00:03:39: we can sort say things to each other that you may not be willing.

00:03:48: And plus, we work quite well together.

00:03:51: She has this very strong interest in this as well and a very strong interests in LGBT rights and LGBT history.

00:03:58: so... We worked really well with that respect too!

00:04:00: Then she specifically also wanted to look at it from women's perspective and what the lesbian community did for gay communities never be repaid because what they did was phenomenal.

00:04:17: And no amount of thanking them is ever going to be enough, but that is a strong part in the story and Mammy's house as well.

00:04:23: That something Amy was adamant about.

00:04:25: so I think from both our perspectives on how we felt strongly about it really wanted to include...I feel like its made the piece even stronger.

00:04:35: The fact that we've known each other for so long just works to out benefit.

00:04:41: thankfully

00:04:42: You play Mammy Barry, what's it like performing a role that was built from real testimony?

00:04:50: There is very strong feeling of responsibility.

00:04:57: I've been working as an actor for years now and done the gamut And I don't think i've ever done anything quite similar to this before.

00:05:08: Like none of these characters are based on a real person, they're not one specific person.

00:05:13: there were lot of an amalgamation but a lot of the different stories we heard and a lot other people in different aspects from different.

00:05:21: Again, because we're sort of telling a story that really hasn't been told before there is a massive feeling of responsibility to it and We want to tell the story right.

00:05:29: We wanted do them justice.

00:05:32: I said The other night to Bernard when he was actually at this show like we are standing on the shoulders of giants And It's only because what they went through him What they did?

00:05:40: That we can enjoy the privileges that we have today in the LGBT community.

00:05:46: So really, we wanted to show that level of respect and make sure that were doing justice for the story they're trying tell.

00:05:52: We hope are!

00:05:53: The feedback it appears.

00:05:58: hopefully the people will continue to think so.

00:06:01: You've said that you want to stop these stories being disposable, what did that mean?

00:06:05: It's

00:06:05: sort of like a lot of these things especially because when I went looking to research it and there is so little information about it they could easily get lost in time or history.

00:06:15: A lot are not here.

00:06:19: And Ireland still has an amazing, as amazing a place as Ireland is.

00:06:23: It has amazing qualities.

00:06:24: there are still some negatives and it's the country that tends to sweep things onto the carpet and sort of doesn't want to deal with things... ...it has been tackling in recent years.

00:06:34: so things are changing.

00:06:35: but unless people get up and talk about this they're willing put them into focus and force people to admit what was going on then we'll just get forgotten and it's too important, to forget.

00:06:51: And these people deserve more than that.

00:06:53: they don't deserve to be forgotten.

00:06:54: They deserve to remembered.

00:06:56: So what was it like premiering the show in London specifically rather then in Ireland?

00:07:02: maybe Dublin?

00:07:04: Well weirdly

00:07:05: right because I mean its an Irish story.

00:07:07: It really is a Irish story but it's an Irish Story In The UK Like the UK has one of the highest Irish diasporas in the world obviously Because we're only there So just across the way.

00:07:20: And so there's a huge, huge community of Irish people in the UK and so it's not just an Irish story.

00:07:27: It's an English Story!

00:07:27: It is a U-K story...it´s just A story about People..It´s a story About History....So its Not Really Just For Irish People.

00:07:36: We really do hope to tour In Ireland in the future, because it really does feel like an important story that needs to be heard there as well.

00:07:47: But equally is important that its heard here and about people who had to leave Ireland.

00:07:53: they couldn't find acceptance or safety where they could possibly discover that It wasn't perfect by any stretch of imagination but was a better option than them staying in situations they were.

00:08:10: You know, I mean it all wasn't nice.

00:08:11: No, It's not a great view of Ireland is also Not A Great View Of History.

00:08:17: But um...It Is What It Is!

00:08:18: It Is The Story That Happened And It Is the Story that Needs To Be Told.

00:08:24: Bernard take us back.

00:08:27: i really want to Know like the experience of what?

00:08:29: It Was Like Being a Priest at the Height of the AIDS Crisis

00:08:36: nationalities, religions race culture.

00:08:40: It did not discriminate and you know to piggyback on Derrick's point there.

00:08:50: no There isn't a lot about the Irish.

00:08:53: well I worked with many irish here in London.

00:08:55: now i've worked at london lighthouse from two and we didn't list the Irish but they were women and men.

00:09:08: And the country of my origin, which I ran out to do its job very simply...and they came here in desperation!

00:09:23: Women AND

00:09:23: Men!!!

00:09:25: And you know it is filled with disease without compassion at a level.

00:09:35: If this play's going profound to my mind is going to move us on another, I would like to think an other mile.

00:09:45: But even if it does a few inches To get people who have the virus or Who?

00:09:54: Have had sons daughters lovers friends who died of HIV AIDS To acknowledge and be able to talk about it then It has done a miraculous job and having seen it twice, I think its one of the most profound and authentic expressions on that era which i've lived through.

00:10:16: Which have lived all my life!

00:10:17: My whole life has been quote-unquote.

00:10:21: HIV AIDS from nineteen eighty one to the present time.

00:10:26: And this is a beautiful... I was going say.. A Beautiful Dip is The Right Word by Derek and Amy, particularly the actors including Derek of course who lived that out.

00:10:42: And I met them.

00:10:43: you know night before last they were so moved themselves by their experience They moved me to tears!

00:10:54: The second night it was easier, but is not exactly... Is black comedy just a correct political word?

00:11:15: But its also profoundly statement that where there's no love put in love and then you will find love.

00:11:26: Where there is no love Put In Love And There You Will Find Love.

00:11:31: That what Amy and Derrick have brought to the stage.

00:11:35: We were loveless.

00:11:37: Nobody has any idea how much we were hated for who are and loved to whom not, okay I'm not HIV positive as far as know but i was labelled the AIDS priest.

00:11:51: no compliment can tell you.

00:11:54: at that time lost my job.

00:11:56: a priest because came out in favor of gay rights etc.

00:12:04: even though quote-unquote at some level.

00:12:07: I am indeed still a priest, but the Catholic Church has not employed me since nineteen eighty five when i was at the height of the AIDS pandemic.

00:12:19: they sacked me because i was saying stuff like safer sex gay rights or human right etc.

00:12:27: So, this is great.

00:12:28: This was wonderful!

00:12:30: I'm delighted to have lived long enough To see people like Derek and Amy much younger... I'll say with a smile if you could see me Much younger Moving on And maybe they're on the backs of joints?

00:12:46: I would never use that.

00:12:48: I got involved in it because my brothers were dying.

00:12:52: Did you see myself?

00:12:53: or don't think so?

00:12:54: But the giants now are Derek and Amy, who were bringing this to people never experienced or don't know about it.

00:13:04: So at the height of the AIDS crisis in New York in nineteen eighty-five you're fired by The Catholic Church.

00:13:11: What do you think when people say nowadays that if Jesus was around Now?

00:13:16: That's precisely the sort work he would have done?

00:13:19: I've always believed religion is a Very private matter.

00:13:27: But very often in institutional religion, Jesus to my mind and in my humble opinion wouldn't recognize institutional religion if it sat on his face.

00:13:41: I mean... My gosh!

00:13:42: Institutional Religion has been so responsible And will stay with our own community LGBTQIA plus AIDS Community.

00:13:53: we couldn't find a church to hold the funeral in New York.

00:13:58: You know, I mean... We did eventually but

00:14:02: all our early

00:14:03: funerals were at Reddon's Funeral Home on Fourteenth Street as most of our funeral here is London.

00:14:14: where are the London Lighthouse.

00:14:17: Religion has very little to be proud when it comes to HIV, AIDS.

00:14:24: Way back in the eighties I did a documentary with channel four called Aids of Priest Testament and i said that AIDS will judge the church...the Church would be judged by AIDS!

00:14:37: I'm sorry yeah..I mean I am quite embarrassed.

00:14:45: uh ...to say I'm the Catholic at that level.

00:14:48: The record is is absolutely atrocious.

00:14:52: Yes, there were good people, non-giving out confirms

00:14:56: etc.,

00:14:57: but the institution itself used all of its might to spread AIDS.

00:15:05: Blamed for the disease.

00:15:08: you deserve AIDS as what came out of the Vatican because you are behaving immorally.

00:15:14: imagine to say that and people dying.

00:15:17: I'm still outraged when i think of that and repeat.

00:15:21: That's totally utterly as you would say there, un-Christian on Christlike.

00:15:28: What drove you to move to London?

00:15:29: And then set up a support group for gay priests.

00:15:33: well um...I was back and forth to london uh..to quote unquote help in this ministry on carling administration because im the priest but it wasn't a ministry and any ministerials.

00:15:48: so I spent more time changing diapers, wiping up crap from young fellas bottoms than i did anointing them or blessing them.

00:15:58: So coming back in fourth...I kind of had run out of steam.

00:16:04: I got a contract over here with an organization called CARA, which is care and resources for people with AIDS in Anglican organization.

00:16:17: And they asked me would i come over to do pastoral work attached to London Lighthouse?

00:16:23: So you know...I needed it changed from New York!

00:16:27: I was burned out by new york but still couldn't do anything else when certainly could not walk away.

00:16:33: so..i came over her and got involved.

00:16:37: And if I'm an Irish man and I am proud in my own way, I mostly embarrass by our history.

00:16:44: In terms of this issue very much so but when i got here was astounded at the ways people with AIDS were treated here quote-unquote by the NHS women and men, dying corridors than I did in hospital beds.

00:17:11: I came here.

00:17:13: the Middlesex Hospital was like a walk into paradise.

00:17:17: people were still dying but they were dying with dignity and human respect.

00:17:22: thank you NHS Thank You UK.

00:17:25: How closely did you two work together on getting some of these details right?

00:17:29: Bernard actually was one of the first people that we interviewed.

00:17:33: so The very first person we interviewed was Joseph Healy, because he had obviously given the talk that initiated all of this in the first place.

00:17:41: And he actually connected us with Bernard and... This is a few years ago!

00:17:47: Cut to now, Bernard's friend of ours which I'm absolutely delighted about.

00:17:53: We've worked together quite a bit on other events and things incredibly supportive of us, this project me just everything we're up to in general.

00:18:09: He's always been available for us.

00:18:11: the text call ask questions too were forever asking him things that are various different events.

00:18:16: he's been incredible during This as I said has been through The Show twice already and We completely understand That it is not an easy watch For Him or other people who have taken part in the research as well, I've come along to see it.

00:18:31: So like we can be thanking him from the rest of our days and hopefully he'll hear it.

00:18:36: thank you Bernard!

00:18:37: Thank You We Love You!

00:18:38: No that's okay...I need a pint!

00:18:43: I'll buy all the pints you want!

00:18:46: What do you think about modern audience especially younger LGBTQ plus audience?

00:18:51: Most needs to kind understand this period

00:18:54: Honestly.

00:18:55: i just really have a realisation that it happened and these were real people.

00:19:01: It's not a story in the TV show, its not to know a tale from some movie... Its real people who went through trauma for us.

00:19:15: today like a few weeks ago I marched in Pride here with a huge number of my friends Bernard included And we were all dressed up and covered in glitter, dancing around to music.

00:19:31: There's a reason why that happened!

00:19:33: Those rights weren't just handed over by us... They were fought for.

00:19:39: Blood, sweat & tears poured into them from people like Bernard.

00:19:43: So what I really want people take away is as i mentioned earlier We are standing on the shoulders of giants.

00:19:50: They deserve our respect they have deserved acknowledgement And they deserve millions and millions of pounds, so give them money.

00:19:59: Well thanks to both of you for that chat!

00:20:00: And of course Mammy's house is on at upstairs at the gatehouse Highgate first to the thirteenth of September.

00:20:07: working people get tickets.

00:20:09: You can get them in the upstairs of The Gate House website or go on our socials which is Mammy'S House Play.

00:20:15: So on Instagram or Facebook or any of those... And yeah we're running till the thirteenth.

00:20:19: come along would love to see ya!

00:20:21: Bernard Derek, thank you so much.

00:20:23: Thank you very much.