Tip Toe Star Gabriel Clark: Live in the gallery

00:00:00: How did you know that?

00:00:01: I've done my research.

00:00:03: That is true.

00:00:03: Welcome to outcast world.

00:00:05: today We're bringing a special episode from the boys.

00:00:07: boys boys podcast.

00:00:09: our guest is Gabriel Clark one of the stars and Russell T Davis.

00:00:12: provocative new drama tiptoe A show that's prompted some serious debate in reflection amongst queer

00:00:17: people.

00:00:18: Queer politics

00:00:19: when Faraj says jump labor might say

00:00:22: how high.

00:00:23: it's not true.

00:00:24: It's offering people false hope.

00:00:25: Sex.

00:00:26: Fating apps have become

00:00:29: a breeding ground for the worst of human behaviours.

00:00:34: And culture.

00:00:35: What do you want to hold me?

00:00:36: We get together and we... Be simple.

00:00:38: Simple!

00:00:39: Be simple.

00:00:39: from here You will, like, go nosh himself off.

00:00:43: This is Outcast

00:00:44: World Ever round of applause.

00:00:47: it always makes it bit more warm.

00:00:49: Hello Gabriel Love it.

00:00:52: Some fans in tonight Right, Gabriel thanks very much For joining us here on The Gallery.

00:00:57: Thank you

00:00:57: for having me.

00:00:58: So we've got two things in common, You and Me.

00:01:01: same university I think.

00:01:03: Oh really?

00:01:04: Yeah yeah

00:01:05: yeah I went to the uni of Manchester a bit before you i think.

00:01:08: What did you study?

00:01:09: I did politics & history but didn't finish it.

00:01:11: I dropped out.

00:01:12: How

00:01:12: come?

00:01:13: Just life got in way.

00:01:15: that's what I say.

00:01:16: I got off at job so I droppedout And kind of regretted.

00:01:19: But what city do go to University In?

00:01:21: A really beautiful university as well.

00:01:23: I felt very lucky.

00:01:24: Well...I was there about a year and then the pandemic happened.

00:01:27: so I got a nice little bit of uni life but very quickly, the rest was on Zoom.

00:01:34: Yeah that did happen didn't it?

00:01:36: And also we've got similarity with our mums.

00:01:38: my mum sings opera.

00:01:40: your mum sings operas.

00:01:41: well you're mum sang Carmen at The Royal Albert Hall.

00:01:44: Your dad plays guitar in band.

00:01:47: You are from Bolton.

00:01:48: Yes

00:01:48: sir

00:01:48: What do other kids parents do?

00:01:52: Not that different as mine.

00:01:56: I remember at school there was always like, you would be asked oh what do your parents doing?

00:02:00: What did your parents do?

00:02:01: and i always felt a sense of embarrassment about it...I don't really know why.

00:02:03: looking back because i feel incredibly proud to come from a very sort of artistic family now but definitely growing up..i remember just thinking oh god!

00:02:14: I wish my mum worked in a bank or something normal.

00:02:18: um but i think that was maybe just an internal sense of not wanting

00:02:24: No.

00:02:24: And having a mum who is an opera singer and dad, who's guitarist and just fixes things... It was quite different thing.

00:02:33: but then growing up we had so many brilliant mad adventures that would never ever have the luxury of being able to have Were it not for that?

00:02:42: So even like My mom doing an opera in France one summer and being flown out to this really fancy villa And we were just staying a little tent at the bottom of this massive garden, and then my mum would go sing for them every day.

00:02:53: But then we basically had like a free holiday in France on summer or getting to so come see her here In The Royal Albert Halls as Carmen.

00:03:00: In Carmen was incredible Um...and Then going watching my dad gig and coming home and like Going down to the workshop helping him with some jobs and then just sitting and listening to him play guitar Very cool childhood.

00:03:14: looking back, I feel very lucky.

00:03:15: It sounds like it's set you up and you can see how You go from that childhood to the kind of career That you've got at the moment.

00:03:21: And you always said you felt a bit different At school.

00:03:23: now was that The queer thing?

00:03:26: Was uh...the arts thing?

00:03:27: or is it Uh..The Sardinian Thing?

00:03:31: i think probably A bit of old three Um....I mean the area that I grew Up in was was very sort Of homogeneous.

00:03:38: um there wasn't anyone that was that different in any sense.

00:03:44: So I definitely felt different, but... There's an internal sense.

00:03:52: when you're queer and understanding your are not having the ability to articulate.

00:03:58: it is because of our failings at school just after section twenty-eight was abolished Being queer about any of those words other than that's not on a good word.

00:04:14: You shouldn't say that yeah, so I think the more sort Of started to understand my queerness The more i in tandem understood That I shouldn't Say anything and that I needed To keep it secret.

00:04:25: And even before I knew why?

00:04:27: I knew that I had to Keep It quiet and That sense of secrecy and shame I suppose Grows and you don't want to feel different as A result of it and Any sense of difference is sort of quashed down.

00:04:39: But yeah, probably a mix of all three.

00:04:42: And then suddenly going oh well I just want to put on costumes and run around on stage like that's what i want to do.

00:04:49: That makes you stand out and make it very different and... ...I felt really lucky in school when.. ..I got into the TV show when I was about fourteen.

00:04:58: The thing people would pick on you for became quite cool.

00:05:01: So I managed to slide under the radar.

00:05:03: It is very bizarre.

00:05:04: You go from geeked to cool overnight because they are doing something we saw you.

00:05:08: Yeah, suddenly you're invited to all the cool people parties.

00:05:11: And until then I used to go and like hide from playing football in PE that we had a brilliant librarian who would shelter the nerds We

00:05:19: could have done with her at our school!

00:05:20: Oh she was fantastic, miss brawling She used any sort of nerd she'd smuggle into library during PE.

00:05:29: That being my life... To be invited to the cool football kids' parties and not quite knowing how I got in there, but it was because they saw me as something that I definitely wasn't.

00:05:39: But yeah... You'll

00:05:41: take it?

00:05:42: Yeah!

00:05:42: I took it around with it.

00:05:43: And

00:05:45: you couldn't afford drama school.

00:05:46: the Octagon Young Company was round-the-cornered and free.

00:05:50: It changed your life.

00:05:52: Tell us what happened then.

00:05:54: I mean..I think is a mix of just having somewhere for my mum to put me for few hours it being the thing that was a gateway to what I wanted to do.

00:06:06: And so weirdly enough, like even growing up with musical parents... ...I didn't want to go into music.

00:06:12: Like- I love music but i'm not- I wouldn't really cast myself as a singer.. ..I don't really play any instrument with any level of proficiency.

00:06:21: So even though is my- What my parents did?

00:06:23: It wasn't an immediate like.

00:06:25: oh!

00:06:25: Im gonna follow in their footsteps and do that.

00:06:27: Um....and I think also theatre and TV, an acting wasn't something they knew how to help me with necessarily but then this was in the doorstep.

00:06:36: And I remember that came into my primary school.

00:06:39: there's someone from The Octagon who said oh we're running a young company.

00:06:43: anyone wants to go... This is information!

00:06:46: They'd given it to my drama teacher.

00:06:48: he passed on onto me absolutely completely changed my life.

00:06:52: It was called Activate at the back of that thing has changed its name now every Tuesday evening in the octagon and they had like different groups for different ages.

00:07:04: so I started there when i was probably about eight or nine, part of it is just playing games but they treated you like professionals at eight on nine.

00:07:15: And gave you opportunities to be unpaid extras in main house shows.

00:07:20: if they were doing Robin Hood or Treasure Island Christmas Carol where they need child actors They would just funnel into a young company which to us was amazing and we were really treated like professional actors.

00:07:32: And, We had an incredible teacher called Jenny and then Matt Hassell as well who now has gone on to run the Almeida's Young Company.

00:07:39: he is fantastic!

00:07:42: It just this outlet channeling creativity that I think sort of being expressed but not quite finessed...and..I absolutely fell in love with creating Not just acting.

00:07:56: they gave you opportunity make your own work and a lot of those sort of young company spaces are devised theatre, they give over that power of creation to the company itself.

00:08:06: So very quickly I think from being young it was also allowing me to understand i could be more than just an actor but create my own work And it all went form there

00:08:19: To change tack slightly.

00:08:22: tell if this is true.

00:08:24: You're at Leeds Festival.

00:08:27: Someone tried to push a cat up your nose because they thought you were your character.

00:08:33: How did you know that?

00:08:35: I've done my research!

00:08:36: That

00:08:36: is true, um... You

00:08:38: must have said this at some point.

00:08:40: Jett had been following and bugging me

00:08:43: was it you?

00:08:44: Wait definitely not me.

00:08:46: Is that

00:08:46: true?

00:08:47: or do things like happen quite

00:08:48: often?

00:08:49: It's really bizarre thing happened obviously but for My time on Hollyoaks was during the pandemic.

00:08:57: So when you start, generally go on a school trip and they say oh as long as your wearing that uniform You're representing in the school Yeah yeah You've got to be on your best behavior etc.

00:09:03: etc.

00:09:05: It's very similar thing When you start show like that Your sort of giving this handbook.

00:09:08: And Did I give

00:09:09: you a Handbook?

00:09:10: How To...

00:09:11: Yeah!

00:09:11: You get Like A nice Not End Up In The

00:09:12: Press

00:09:13: Basically Um..and I think i'm quite a vanilla person.

00:09:18: I didn't really need to worry about me That much.

00:09:21: but They give you this Hollyoaks handbook and it was very useful, things about dealing with the press.

00:09:27: And social media going out... A lot of things that I think are really important especially when on a show where there's got young audience what your post in not encouraging behaviour or drug taking extreme alcohol consumption etc.

00:09:43: but part is that thing like when your episodes start to go You'll be recognised on the street and people will stop you, And... ...you won't able to go about your life in the same way.

00:10:00: I read that and was like well it's illegal out of my house.

00:10:03: There is nothing happening on the streets.

00:10:06: So its a really weird thing sort-of.

00:10:07: start show.

00:10:08: Be told oh your lives gonna change there.

00:10:10: no one on the Street.

00:10:11: so i spent first year being like, well that handbook was a load of bollocks.

00:10:16: Is there anyone?

00:10:17: Because no one would have recognized you because he didn't see anyone.

00:10:19: Yeah I was wondering around the streets going hello!

00:10:22: No and then Leeds Festival is sort of One Of The First Big Events Like That Year When Things Were Opening Up And...

00:10:31: At the age if people go on to Leeds and Reading as Well yeah it's kind of post-JSSA isn't

00:10:35: It?

00:10:35: I did realise its basically a Hollyoaks Convention.

00:10:36: Yes We went As A Hollyoakes Cast.

00:10:41: We were like

00:10:41: books at the ready.

00:10:42: I'm sure

00:10:43: it was insane.

00:10:44: It was being properly surrounded by people and i've never experienced anything Like that, but it Was a very bizarre thing to go from Starting The show And getting used To doing A tv Show and Getting Used to Being on it and Going okay.

00:10:58: well?

00:10:58: I've got my life and I've Got Holly Oaks and Nothing Else Has Changed.

00:11:01: then suddenly Been in this this big field and everyone sort of, not every one but a lot people knowing who you are.

00:11:08: But then also lots of different substances in my character on the show at that time was a ketamine addict And I had someone come up to me and try to shove some ketamine out my nose just insisting i love it and... ...I've never done any drug in my life!

00:11:27: It's very front-end way to realise people you don't now know who you are, which is like having a weird form of dementia.

00:11:36: Going around and going.

00:11:37: do I know you?

00:11:38: Like...I've had our whole conversation with someone once on the way to Euston Station thinking that maybe sat next to them in maths.

00:11:45: so they'd forgotten.

00:11:46: They just watch your TV.

00:11:47: Or we got up at the station then went.

00:11:48: also can i have a selfie?

00:11:50: Oh!

00:11:51: I was asking how their mum was what they been up too thinkin' that ive..just forgotten who they were.

00:11:58: But yeah very bizarre thing happened.

00:12:01: Can I take you back to that handbook, when you start Holy Oaks and it's like how to behave?

00:12:07: Not excessive alcohol consumption.

00:12:08: Don't say anything particularly controversial about drugs.

00:12:11: What does this say?

00:12:12: or do they say something about political statements on social media?

00:12:17: because... This is important for you.

00:12:20: You're wearing a Palestinian flag right now.

00:12:22: These things are important to a lot of people and they're important for you.

00:12:25: But sometimes, it don't sit so easily if your working as kind of conventional broadcaster.

00:12:29: So did there have any advice on that?

00:12:31: And what were the thoughts around this?

00:12:32: generally?

00:12:32: I mean not that i remember but when i started in was twenty-twenty everything has become much more difficult now In terms of The way people speak about things.

00:12:47: Everyone is much more

00:12:51: angry

00:12:52: Angry and unwilling have conversations and afraid of difficult conversations, afraid of any sort of controversy.

00:13:01: But there was nothing overt when I got given that handbook saying you can't post about this or the other but also do think...

00:13:11: If had?

00:13:14: Well it would've stopped me because ...I had a really big wake-up call on that show Because i'd already come out And a few months into being on the show, I was asked on Instagram if I was out and said yes.

00:13:28: Then next day it's in the tabloids of like Hollyoaks actor comes out as gay.

00:13:32: They love them stories about Hollyoak actors In particular.

00:13:35: there is something about that in the Tabloid newspaper.

00:13:37: they really enjoy isn't?

00:13:39: It's pretty

00:13:40: off!

00:13:42: But what was really bizarre was i hadn't come out so its already out.

00:13:46: So this story just completely grounded in nonsense.

00:13:51: I had to go into the press office and talk about it.

00:13:53: And... It was sort of that moment, going.

00:13:56: oh actually like what i say does have an impact in people do pay attention.

00:14:00: so i'm gonna make sure that i say things especially being a gay man with big barrier to me coming out Was thinking i wanted to be an actor but couldn't name an openly gay actor?

00:14:11: And..I still don't think there are enough actors who were openly gay.

00:14:15: There's plenty of gay actors

00:14:16: though There are plenty of gay actors, but not many that speak about being gay.

00:14:20: And I do think it's because especially when you sort of look at actors who were sort of like A-list and leads have action films or Marvel films and big franchises It is a case of been a marketable product and its quite depressing to feel Like Because You're Gay Your Not As Marketable as Our Straight Counterparts because they're worried that people won't turn up and watch a film if they don't think, that they can get with the person.

00:14:51: Because their not straight

00:14:53: or- It's same logic as it has been since probably about nineteen fifty isn't?

00:14:56: Hasn't really being updated Yeah!

00:14:58: And its depressing state of affairs... ...and made me feel young when I was younger wanting to come out.. ..that oh i cant be an actor those dont go together.

00:15:08: And I feel like along way just forgot about that then remembered that process thinking When Those Articles Came Out articles is a loose term for tabloid nonsense, but when that came out and thinking oh well actually I'm not going to shut up about it.

00:15:25: And there are other things that i feel very passionate about like what's happening in Palestine?

00:15:31: If people aren't gonna...I mean the Sun once wrote me making a lasagna.

00:15:35: so if they're going to write I hope a good way.

00:15:41: It was a good lasagna, but if they're going to write about stuff then or If i'm oppressive and Then II've become aware that actually people will talk About what you talked about.

00:15:53: so im gonna Talk about the things That are important.

00:15:56: not because i don't think Im Important But i dont really Think im that important And ive Not got that much To say about myself.

00:16:05: I have a lot of things to say about things that i think are very important and if people are going listen what im gonna say then Im gunna use it as the chance to say things thats actually needn't be said.

00:16:14: When you had those tabloid articles, about something that was nothing really because your already out but did u feel like the opportunity to come up publicly is taken by ur hands?

00:16:26: And also Did The Industry Do You Think See U Differently In Some Ways?

00:16:33: Thats A Really Good Question.

00:16:35: Thought about in that way.

00:16:37: I what was nice is off the back of it.

00:16:39: The press team Gave me an opportunity to write and article for the Metro About coming out, and about my experience have come now And That was really nice because it felt like i could sort of reclaim ownership Of that?

00:16:52: It Was frail GBT history month and Off-the-back of it i started To Have a lot of young closeted gay people messaging Me on social media asking For advice Which was a little bit overwhelming because I partly felt like, I'm not actually qualified to give advice but what's really nice is that i could point them in the direction of charities and Organizations and help lines.

00:17:13: That Could Help Them.

00:17:15: And then What Was Even nicer?

00:17:16: And It Was Really Rewarding Was Then Seeing Like Some People A Few Months Down The Line Getting In Touch And Saying Thank You So Much Like Whether it Was A Letter They'd Written Me That I Replyed To Or Some Social Media But Them Saying I've Just Come Out It was fine and my parents accepted me or I've told friends knowing that actually the power of speaking out, being visible... ...and using both those things makes a difference.

00:17:46: So i don't feel like it necessarily took that agency away because I quickly reclaimed it.

00:17:56: but there's been some wake-up call to how media views Queerness and LGBT plus people,

00:18:03: but

00:18:05: I'm not gonna be in the closet And Not act like.

00:18:11: I can do both.

00:18:13: I Don't want it to let affect my career So I don't really think about it and if it does it does.

00:18:17: But um i'm not going to let you stop me pursuing my career?

00:18:21: I don' t think jock

00:18:22: night opening scene.

00:18:23: walk us through please.

00:18:25: People have waited through ninety seconds of adverts to get into

00:18:27: this.

00:18:27: Well, thank you very much for waiting!

00:18:29: So I was in Romania on a job and the day before i flew back got an email from my agent saying hi Gabe This is coming for you.

00:18:39: let me know what do think Before I say yes To A Tape.

00:18:42: And

00:18:43: I thought oh that's interesting.

00:18:45: Opened The Script and thought I don't use it.

00:18:47: You just Get The Tape Through and I Do It.

00:18:50: Why Is My Agent Ask Me What I Think?

00:18:54: So I opened the script, downloaded it and thought oh I'll read on a plane.

00:18:57: It's a jock night or great title.

00:19:01: Sat on the plane.

00:19:02: we were on our way back from Romania flying to Munich airport.

00:19:05: in the plane they're coming down with free chocolates And i thought oh well yeah... I opened the script.

00:19:11: have look through.

00:19:12: now I'm going to read first page of character list then flicked to act one scene one and describe these three characters AJ, Cam and Russ under a bed together.

00:19:27: AJ who's the character I played is riding one of the characters being vigorously double penetrated And just as i read the word Double Penetrated this lovely flight attendant went over and said would you like a chocolate?

00:19:41: I've never closed my iPad quicker!

00:19:43: I felt like was opening hardcore porn on the plane.

00:19:50: It was so like flustered.

00:19:52: I said, yes!

00:19:52: Yes thank you.

00:19:53: Like immediately melted in my hand with the sweat... She probably

00:19:55: just thought that you were reading erotic fiction or something?

00:19:58: Well it's very erotic fiktion.

00:20:01: and then thought oh my god well i have to do this play.

00:20:05: It was such an incredible play And I think a real power of that play got people in easily In terms getting audiences for what became really important story about GHB and Chemsex.

00:20:19: But it did open with a very, very full frontal.

00:20:22: Very intense double penetrating sex scene of which my character was the one being double-penetrated.

00:20:30: So there's just a whole host of how well you would have

00:20:33: to be naked.

00:20:34: I mean

00:20:34: not really naked because Really naked.

00:20:38: we were in jockstraps but We had a fantastic intimacy coordinator some good child who?

00:20:44: made it look incredibly real.

00:20:46: And when we got to the point where were doing in front of audiences, there was a gag that would appear on stage and it looked like my character had been penetrated by one singular person... ...and then get to a point where reveal under the duvet second person which is the first act of sex onstage you hear a gasp.

00:21:10: And then when we reveal the sort of person beneath and they realize what's happening would just be such a huge reaction every night.

00:21:16: It was really fun way to start

00:21:18: like laughter,

00:21:20: but it was very often laughed at those one night where there was young Hollywood fan who'd come with her mom on.

00:21:28: I remember that point When that revealed happened?

00:21:30: There wasn't.

00:21:35: my mum came to watch.

00:21:37: That was...I could hear her silence.

00:21:42: It was always a varied reaction and because the show, The Theatres we did it in.

00:21:46: We did at the fantastic Kultmull Theatre in Manchester In The Seven Dials Playhouse in London both of which are very intimate spaces And...in The Seven Dials is even more intimate than in Manchester!

00:21:59: ...and the audience Are Very-Very-Very close Especially for that first scene where you can make very intense eye contact with them.

00:22:09: So that was always quite interesting, accidentally catching someone's eye in the middle of being double penetrated.

00:22:15: It has been a lot of use for the term Double Penetration.

00:22:18: Yeah,

00:22:18: D-peed!

00:22:19: We'll abbreviate it.

00:22:20: It is great

00:22:21: for numbers.

00:22:22: Well... Double penetration, double penetration.

00:22:27: Be careful because this will end up on the internet and its just him saying that in a loop.

00:22:30: everyone

00:22:30: Oh God.

00:22:31: so I guess how would i?

00:22:36: Why would I describe this?

00:22:36: The audience is eating the cake, and then the play turns into something completely different.

00:22:41: It's about chem sex!

00:22:42: Um... why did you do a play about chem-sex?

00:22:46: I

00:22:47: mean it was really good question.

00:22:48: Did she not do

00:22:49: drugs?!

00:22:50: Except for that one time at Leeds Festival when he didn't take any care to make it.

00:22:54: Yes um..it was something that i sort of knew relatively little about.

00:23:01: much too my ignorance really.

00:23:06: after that flight attendant walked off and I enjoyed my free chocolate, then read the rest of the play.

00:23:12: And as is for audience experience in this show you are tantalised by the sensationalism of double penetration... Great sentence!

00:23:25: Then the play really just begins so anyone who comes to watch it gets given immediately.

00:23:31: anyone who's not, sort of gets woken up and then the play begins.

00:23:35: And you're in!

00:23:38: It was so powerfully written by Adam Zayn directed it really really striking an epidemic.

00:23:49: essentially what has happened is so scary linked to similar to we were saying the sort of experience of understanding your queerness and immediately it being linked to secrecy, shame & guilt.

00:24:02: And those things becoming almost addictive!

00:24:07: It's a really difficult nuanced conversation to have because also I don't take drugs but i'm not going stand up there saying Don't Take Drugs But theres no regulation on that.

00:24:21: as result its incredibly dangerous Odeon, people who were choking on their own saliva and vomit.

00:24:30: People don't know because everyone is high And really horrific horrible things happened.

00:24:35: This play explored those very full-on Started some important conversations both within the cast and in audiences that came to watch it.

00:24:47: It was something I had do quite a lot of research to understand To get my head around Research on the internet, Google.

00:24:59: There's no in-person research for that but it was really scary to be honest of understanding how easily this can happen and how frequently happens And is endemic.

00:25:19: The play took two hours to explore this issue and it is a very, very complex one.

00:25:25: And I think... It was something that felt incredibly proud of being part because tackling such a complex issues had on but in really nuanced way In the sense that fundamentally doesn't shame those who engage with it Because sex shouldn't be shameful for queer people.

00:25:47: You're made feel ashamed for your queerness.

00:25:50: So to be part of something that was interrogating shame, queerness sex drugs and Trying to strip away the shame and have an upfront conversation about it felt like a Really important job to do.

00:26:03: And I felt very very lucky to be given opportunity in.

00:26:06: It was fantastic and also there's a lot double penetration which was very fun to lose stage.

00:26:14: so The night Larry Kramer kissed me he was written in nineteen ninety two at What they called the AIDS crisis, it's we wouldn't really say that I would.

00:26:23: We'd say The HIV Crisis and you performed in twenty-twenty six.

00:26:28: from your research And i don't think you're speaking as somebody there is HIV positive or anything but You've done a lot of research for this?

00:26:34: She played the role.

00:26:35: what are the differences That you see between when the play was written in nineteen ninety two?

00:26:39: When you when you performed at in Manchester yeah In two thousand and twenty six with Russell T Davis watching one night?

00:26:45: Yeah I think if you'd have asked me that question two years ago the differences would've been greater.

00:26:56: Unfortunately, like the Trump administration rolling back USAID and... ...the rise of this weird conspiracy theory of HIV being a hoax That is being pushed more and more.

00:27:11: The lack of ability to access life-saving medication.

00:27:16: it was alarming.

00:27:17: there were fewer differences than there were similarities.

00:27:20: There were of course differences in the, like... The rights that we have today.

00:27:26: Albeit ones can be taken away are still rights which weren't in place when David Drake was writing this show.

00:27:35: The play ends with a performer getting ready to enter into the twenty-first century at the time it's written before it happened.

00:27:47: Some of us actually remember it happening!

00:27:50: That was a real interesting scene to do, because we were taking the scene that... ...was talking about some events that hadn't happened and looking at a person's hopes in speculation.

00:28:01: About where he may be in nineteen ninety nine going into the twenty-first century his hopes for year two thousand and beyond.

00:28:07: but lookin' up that in twenty twenty six And lookin back Looking this character who is talking about having a civil partnership as such an achievement able to look at that fondly and go, oh wow he doesn't know.

00:28:23: coming along the way is gay marriage.

00:28:26: And how beautiful of a thing it was.

00:28:28: but also how long will take for this to be fought-for?

00:28:31: So that's an interesting scene because there were a real sense of hope that felt almost odd performing in twenty-twenty six.

00:28:42: There was line where character looks at audience saying you just have make here and he's sort of like holding them all in his hand, then he says you know it is good here.

00:28:55: It's better You'll see.

00:28:58: And it felt really odd to be performing a piece that was originally the future now far far in the past To an audience in twenty-twenty six.

00:29:06: looking back at the early two thousands I think a lot of us thinking oh god i wish i could have been back Then as opposed to Now?

00:29:13: And I always thought almost quite slightly disingenuous saying its better Here.

00:29:17: but it felt Like for those that became The question over the play where are we today and is it better here?

00:29:24: And, Where Are We

00:29:24: Going?,

00:29:26: but in a piece that was all about the importance of activism.

00:29:30: The power of an individual to stand up... ...and say no!

00:29:35: Find a group of activists with the importance they act up.

00:29:40: It felt hauntingly relevant to be standing there saying those words especially London when had the fantastic danglass of Act Up London in talking about those things and then having a conversation with them after, what their next movement is?

00:29:57: And where the next dying's going to be.

00:30:00: Going.

00:30:00: actually have things changed that much?

00:30:02: I don't know.

00:30:02: What do you think

00:30:05: for people with HIV?

00:30:08: For us as community?

00:30:09: are we facing similar battles than back then?

00:30:12: How Things Got Better?

00:30:16: from what you said there was definitely, if you were told your had HIV in nineteen ninety two.

00:30:21: You're going to be dead within two years.

00:30:22: Yeah imagine the impact on largely young men and a whole generation has wiped out.

00:30:28: but prep as well You know, things that have made things an awful lot better.

00:30:33: But it's funny isn't?

00:30:34: we look back at that?

00:30:35: I was thinking before when you said it in nineteen ninety nine going into two thousand.

00:30:39: what a hopeful period.

00:30:41: the sort of late nineties felt like with kind of like center left politics both side of The Atlantic.

00:30:46: We imagine be looking to the future and we'd continue to feel better And things are materially better.

00:30:52: but um...we don't Feel Like They Are.

00:30:54: They don't feel like they're gonna continue to get better.

00:30:56: We don't think things are going to continue to improve.

00:30:59: is kind of why Phil when I look back at that and I was there in nineteen ninety nine, I was seventeen so i remember the millennium Approaching me wow enough for people to lock up now and go that's twenty five years ago.

00:31:10: did it feel Like a Wow thing?

00:31:12: yeah Things can only Get Better yet.

00:31:15: quote Tony Blair theme tune.

00:31:17: he's very popular Now isn't He?

00:31:21: Yeah No It Did And Sadly Things Don't Feel That They Have Fascinating as well, you know to do a play like that in the current context.

00:31:31: Tell me about Russell T Davis.

00:31:32: We're gonna come back for little bit more about Russell t davis In just a bit because there's something rather exciting That is good.

00:31:36: could be a lie like you being force-fed kessemen and he'd take away at Leeds Festival.

00:31:40: who didn't take it?

00:31:42: Will come to a bit more but Russell T Davison a bit with The Garland I rustles in the front row.

00:31:48: almost the entire audience stayed for The Post Show Conversation.

00:31:51: What does that tell you about who's in the room, this kind of work?

00:31:57: I mean it was such a privilege to have Russell watching Nevermind giving up his time To having conversation with and it was a gala night at George House Trust which...

00:32:07: He is patron of George House?

00:32:08: Yeah he is

00:32:09: a patron And they've been doing incredible what they were Manchester A's line back In the eighties and nineties.

00:32:13: They're going through thirty years an unbelievable organization, the work they do is fantastic.

00:32:22: And so just to be able to have Russel in the audience but also Paul Fairweather and other people who were founders of The Manchester Aids Line... To be able those conversations about what's different today?

00:32:38: What it same as you are rightly saying that difference being diagnosed with positive today not a death sentence But moments like that performing at play and knowing there were people in the audience who had lost so many People was such I've never had as an actor before this sort of responsibility have Telling a story.

00:33:02: That is mine, but isn't mine?

00:33:04: And But they're being people in The Room Who Have Directly Experienced That.

00:33:10: and There's A really Really Sort Of Powerful Moment Towards the end of the Players.

00:33:15: he's remembering all these people that he's lost and just going through name after name, after name.

00:33:21: And then sort of telling a little bit stories about one or two names.

00:33:24: but it is the volume of it having people in the audience who were there at the time come up to me and share stories afterwards with people they had lost.

00:33:37: almost every night as that show went on this scene became heavier because it also become an opportunity for hold the people people and remember those people as well.

00:33:49: along the way, this character is remembering that he's lost.

00:33:52: And it was such a joy to have Russell in.

00:33:53: we had a beautiful post-show conversation and We spoke about the show and his work.

00:34:00: I mean He has been a fearless champion of Queer stories since he started telling stories.

00:34:07: It was Such A Joy To Have Him On The Stage because also interrogating what is the relevance Of This Story That Is Deeply Rooted In New York To Manchester and who better than someone?

00:34:19: Who's sort of told the story of Queer life in Manchester from The Nineties through to the present day, to help answer that question.

00:34:27: Um...to

00:34:31: take you back too You have a flag on there.

00:34:33: Palestinian flag on they're.

00:34:34: not every actor will get drawn On issues like that.

00:34:37: A lot people go out their way to really avoid Like getting involved.

00:34:42: You posted pro-Palestine content the day your biggest casting was announced.

00:34:48: Is that courage or is it just who you are and who do want to be?

00:34:51: Because if career ends because of this, then we don't need a career.

00:34:55: You're twenty-seven years old with lots left at risk.

00:34:59: I hope so!

00:35:00: I think coming back on what we were saying earlier about knowing whether people look into what i'm talking LGBT plus rights talking about trans rights or Talking About Palestine if people are looking I think i have a responsibility especially as As A white man, as a British person Yeah.

00:35:28: I've got an extraordinary degree of privilege that I can walk through the world very easily and I Shouldn't And don't take That for granted.

00:35:42: but I also have a responsibility as an actor, someone who's got platform to use that platform and the privilege I've got raise awareness of those you don't.

00:35:54: And important things happening.

00:35:56: so i knew at day like people looking my social media... I was very proud posting about casting in show but also it is opportunity make sure making sure that narrative's not forgotten.

00:36:13: And I'm not expecting, if it's picked up they're gonna say oh he is doing the show but let us talk about this... But you can't ignore them.

00:36:21: Some people

00:36:23: will!

00:36:24: Yeah and go into an event.

00:36:27: more for me knowing there from output.

00:36:33: those are conversations i am going to be having.

00:36:37: If every actor stood-up free Palestine trans lives matter and Spoke out on those issues.

00:36:48: They can't sack every actor, not hair every actor.

00:36:51: So I think the more of us that do speak out in them or was it do stand up?

00:36:55: And use our platforms That they're sort easier is to champion those important causes.

00:37:01: It's safety numbers isn't it don't?

00:37:03: if you see there are a lot musicians got together to burn a concert to support their Support.

00:37:08: the cause i guess Palestinian rights and what was going on in Gaza, there were some really big names for them.

00:37:16: but if you take a stand like that.

00:37:18: There are sections of the press who will gladly attack you.

00:37:20: Ninety percent is right-wing.

00:37:24: It shouldn't be controversial to say there's genocide happening.

00:37:27: it should happen then.

00:37:29: But at least I know i'm on the right side of history.

00:37:38: Tell us more.

00:37:40: There's something we should know apparently, Russell T. Davis, Alan Cumming channel four without spoiling or smiling that even facial expressions are a giveaway.

00:37:51: Tell us tell is what?

00:37:52: We can now about all of this.

00:37:54: Oh,

00:37:55: wow don't

00:37:56: grow What

00:37:56: kind I say.

00:37:58: yeah, I mean obviously I can really see much but tiptoe it coming out this year.

00:38:06: It's Russell' new five-part drama for Channel Four.

00:38:09: What can we expect?

00:38:11: He has done Cucumber!

00:38:13: So it is nice.

00:38:14: in a way, he sort of forms a loose trilogy with Queer as Folk, Cucumba and this... Love

00:38:19: it.

00:38:19: so its Manchester

00:38:20: based Not the same world but its Manchester Based And like gay mancute well I'm from Bolton not Mancunian But someone from Greater Manchester To be part again at what were saying A group people who are gay, our trans or bi.

00:38:40: Our lesbian and queer telling a story that is actually our story was the best professional experience I've ever had in my life.

00:38:53: It's such a magical show heart breaking, it's brilliant.

00:38:57: It is sexy and exciting!

00:38:59: It's funny, full of love...and so full of humanity.

00:39:03: And

00:39:03: in Manchester?

00:39:04: Yes, all set on Canal Street.

00:39:06: It was incredible.

00:39:08: Is it something that it involves Russell not going to put out with just a load of cis gay men in the year-end?

00:39:15: No.

00:39:16: The cast isn't just the crew but I think what was really fundamental for this experience were key street productions made an effort and they do in all of their productions to make sure that there was never, in any room just one person with a particular identity.

00:39:37: And we end up having conversations on set about the idea.

00:39:40: if it's been one then there is none... ...and being the only gay person on set you become aware that your'e the ONLY gay person.

00:39:48: So being part of a cast where theres multiple gay people, multiple trans actors black actors multiple, like just queer people everywhere but also straight people and allies.

00:40:01: And both in the cast and the crew made for the most incredible experience because everyone felt they had a stake in this story.

00:40:10: But Everyone Felt So Empowered by it and Excited By It was The Most Incredible Filming Experience.

00:40:17: So you've filmed that already?

00:40:19: Filmed, wrapped... All

00:40:19: done!

00:40:20: When is it done last year?

00:40:21: Yeah, they wrapped in December.

00:40:23: To go transmission on Channel Four.

00:40:25: when?

00:40:26: This year!

00:40:26: What

00:40:27: time?

00:40:28: I don't know... I actually don't now it whatever Time.

00:40:33: okay um channel for this Year Soon.

00:40:39: I'm sure things will start coming out about very soon.

00:40:41: I can't say anything.

00:40:42: Okay but i can Say that is amazing and Alan Coming And David Morrissey Will Below everyone, I mean there are two incredible actors.

00:40:53: That's a given both at the height of their game and They just give them most Incredible like powerhouse performances But our soul generous an open-the-floor in every scene.

00:41:06: they're in to allow everything other actor in that show to flourish And bring Their A game through everything.

00:41:13: it was just such a joy being on that set where you You've got so much time to play and our incredible director Peter Hall was So generous with his time.

00:41:23: I mean it's the first job.

00:41:24: I've ever had where we were brought into rehearse And just given chance to play together and have like bar training because my character is part of a group Of people who work behind-the-bar, and we would just

00:41:34: partially set on Canal Street as well.

00:41:36: Yes,

00:41:37: I'm in.

00:41:37: filming on canal street Was iconic credible especially sort of that lineage of Russell shows of Chris folk cucumber now tiptoe telling the story of Canal Street and how it's evolved, changed over years.

00:41:51: This group of misfits working in this bar that Leo Allen's character runs... The buzz on Canal Street when we were filming there was incredible!

00:42:04: And also production brought in punters, drag queens & bar staff to be extras.

00:42:10: so we're all set with people who are just regulars.

00:42:16: the bar that we were filming in and it was just mad like you would, In between scenes go out onto the street And there'd be people

00:42:22: Just

00:42:23: so excited about The fact We're filming There.

00:42:26: It just felt Like such a special experience So lovely to have Such support from the community An excitement around this show That's not even come Out yet.

00:42:42: To connect two things here Jock Knight and Manchester and Canal Street.

00:42:47: Fun fact Manchester has been identified as one of the fastest growing chem sex scenes in the UK.

00:42:52: It sounds like it's come from an estate agent.

00:42:54: now hasn't did making this play change?

00:42:57: how you saw Canal Street?

00:42:59: Um, because

00:43:00: it's a different canal street to the one that was when quiz folk came up.

00:43:02: I lived in Manchester for a period of time and moved back ten years ago.

00:43:06: And first-hand experience Going down the wormhole of Kemp sex ended up in hospital had to go into rehab and everything destroyed my life that whole thing.

00:43:14: So it's a subject.

00:43:14: It was very close to my heart when I see it played out In Manchester, people just don't realize that you're in some sort of regional city And you think these things are confined to London New York kind of San Francisco But they're not these there.

00:43:25: These are things that are happening on the British queer scene now and Manchester in particular.

00:43:32: Yeah, especially doing jock night vague knowledge of what Chemsex was and Jock Knight taught me a lot about the detail on it, but really talked to you all about the extents.

00:43:54: How frequently is happening everywhere?

00:43:58: It's spreading rapidly very scary... I also think good that people are talking about it because there are incredible places where you can go and get help, support fantastic rehab facilities groups therapy.

00:44:21: It's not the end I think its really important to say but also is great that people aren't stigmatising people.

00:44:28: going through this again compounds a sense of shame guilt that leads to a lot of these issues happening in the first place.

00:44:38: But, like my relationship with Canal Street not necessarily because it did change but I had really been out on canal street before doing jock night and I grew up in Bolton so Manchester always felt close but also very far away.

00:44:55: when i came out was just around twenty.

00:44:57: then pandemic happened Before Jock Knight, I just realised that didn't have many queer friendships in my life which was quite a sad realisation.

00:45:11: but then this show came along and gave me loads.

00:45:14: And as part of it after shows or rehearsals the cast were like right we're going out on Canal Street!

00:45:21: It's really beautiful introduction to it because half of Canal Street watched that show.

00:45:26: so still today i cannot walk down Canal street without someone saying oh you get double penetrated which is always... They say

00:45:31: that to everyone down there, it's a sad thing.

00:45:33: Yeah potentially.

00:45:35: and then filming the night oh my god film in Tiptoe on Canal Street was again such a beautiful way to like be part of that street.

00:45:48: in a way that's not just associating with going out and drink.

00:45:52: but

00:45:53: There is a side to Canal Street that needs to be explored, there isn't drink.

00:45:56: Drugs?

00:45:56: Yes!

00:45:57: Yeah so...there's a community there.

00:45:58: let's explore the communities.

00:45:59: Such

00:45:59: a community and I think when you're there during the day You really feel it.

00:46:02: And those spaces whether its just sort of hanging out next To The Alan Turing statue or going into Richmond Tea Rooms Or go in into bars that are open During the Day Just having chats with people In a really manque way like everyone wants talk to Everyone But your also in place.

00:46:18: That Is Really Queer & Has So Much History And there are so many great walk-in tours around that, but any bar you go into.

00:46:25: You can just go in and chat to people have a lovely conversation... People will talk!

00:46:30: But I think right now like spaces like Boys Boys Boys and spaces like Canal Street Are going to become ever more important because we're also facing a lot of hostility.. ..and i think Queer Space is where you can Go In and Have A sense Of Community with Queer.

00:46:47: People are vital on their lifelines for a lot and they sort of need to be protected.

00:46:52: So I feel like, every time I walk down Canal Street hours we're really proud now which is something that i've definitely got since doing Jock Knight and Tiptoe.

00:47:06: Through doing that stuff you are part of Manchester Queer Royalty.

00:47:09: I think

00:47:10: Oh

00:47:11: don't know about that.

00:47:11: The soon as your in with Russell T Davies who have been on them shows thats it.

00:47:14: You're too modest.

00:47:16: So you told an interview that your dream job, this is our last question... ...is just being employed but also let's say very carefully that playing the doctor wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

00:47:25: Oh!

00:47:26: You don't know what you've said publicly.

00:47:30: I'm surprised anyway with things you have said.

00:47:32: You've done Tiptoe and worked with Russell T Davis.

00:47:36: The TARDIS is right there.

00:47:38: If he offered would take it.

00:47:41: Who

00:47:41: wouldn?

00:47:42: Yeah

00:47:43: Would you?

00:47:44: Yeah, he's not offering me that.

00:47:46: You never know?

00:47:47: Well

00:47:47: yeah it would be a sign up for the box.

00:47:48: but what about you?

00:47:50: well I genuinely think is

00:47:53: aren't we on The Lookout For A Doctor

00:47:57: who knows she's

00:47:58: a temp?

00:47:59: i think

00:47:59: It Is...the greatest show ever and I was the perfect age when doctor Who came back in the Star Wars prequels were coming out And those two things, Star Wars and Doctor Who were the things that as a kid absolutely like ignited my imagination.

00:48:15: And made me want to go into storytelling because they just seemed so endless... Yeah.

00:48:19: ...and so exciting.

00:48:21: Limitless

00:48:22: aren't there?

00:48:22: A franchise is really story telling

00:48:24: wise.

00:48:24: Totally!

00:48:25: I think sci-fi especially Sci-Fi & Fantasy has such a large queer following Because The world's shit.

00:48:32: But also they present these worlds in which queerness is not an impossibility, the space to imagine this like queer reality where being gay exists in a world alongside aliens and other planets and monsters.

00:48:46: And Being Gay's their last thing on anyone's minds.

00:48:50: actually if there's you know A planet of creatures who only speak with noises The possibilities are endless.

00:49:00: therefore There was a space out that were it normal to be gay.

00:49:05: it makes being gay both brilliant and exciting, not different.

00:49:11: but difference is celebrated.

00:49:13: And there's such a queerness to shows like Doctor Who that are so attractive I think for young queer people.

00:49:20: they provide this safe space where you're not going get judged.

00:49:24: So growing up with me the character of The Doctor became so enamoring and exciting because no matter what gender these characters aren't defined by their sexuality, their relationships.

00:49:38: They're also not massive and built and stereotypically like... anything?

00:49:45: Anything!

00:49:46: Yeah they're free of those confines and they crucially use words and love and intelligence to solve problems as opposed to violence and weapons.

00:49:57: so I think for anyone that is the sort of hero we should be looking too.

00:50:03: So of course like Rose, that would be a dream.

00:50:06: when Billy's gone We'll see.

00:50:10: and Gabriel.

00:50:11: Thank you so much for dropping into the gallery and having a chat with us.

00:50:16: It seems like it's gonna Be really exciting year.

00:50:18: food for you career-wise.

00:50:20: so thank You.

00:50:21: fingers crossed on.

00:50:22: thanks very much.

00:50:22: they're very lovely Gabriel

00:50:49: Clark.