Is The Party Over, Andy?

00:00:00: Right, welcome to Outcast World.

00:00:01: The stuff I'm saying may change in the next few days... ...I don't think we've ever recorded an episode under these kind of circumstances but anyway Andy Burnham is back in Parliament and the seat was never really a point was it?

00:00:12: Close to fifty-five per cent A majority north of nine thousand In a town that went reformed top to bottom just six weeks ago But Makerfield Was only ever really the door wasn't It?

00:00:22: What sits on the other side Is the leadership Of the Labour Party And obviously being Prime Minister And after a night like this, the question is no longer.

00:00:32: when he walks through that door it's What is a woman?

00:01:11: Andy Burnham, who wants to be the next Prime Minister doesn't seem

00:01:15: Gender-critical feminist.

00:01:16: Rosie Duffield

00:01:17: had supported

00:01:18: Burnham

00:01:18: to be

00:01:19: the next leader, but is she having second thoughts?

00:01:22: The thing is that I just know that's what politicians do, particularly men who don't want to deal with this issue and he probably didn't expect it.

00:01:29: He probably did not necessarily know where we had got to in Westminster perhaps as being busy doing bus things or whatever but you're right – he has to make a decision!

00:01:38: You have to understand our point of view…I wouldn't dream the trillion years ago.

00:01:42: you know the Labour Party again ever if he doesn't make clear and he's the leader, why would I?

00:01:47: There is nothing in it for me.

00:01:50: And people like me have had enough of this

00:01:52: rubbish.".

00:01:53: This now seems to be a question.

00:01:54: they fire at every single left-wing person before their finish sitting down…and most are actually just ducking...and pretend that its not there.

00:02:02: Who can define what woman is or whether those who've transformed

00:02:05: into being

00:02:06: their version of women are allowed female only spaces?

00:02:12: Andy Burnham

00:02:13: has relit the fire!

00:02:16: Look,

00:02:16: he's not the first Labour politician to have been embarrassed by this question.

00:02:20: I think David Lambie said that he thought a woman or man could grow a cervix.

00:02:25: Keir Starmer famously couldn't answer questions about whether or not a women can have a penis but He was making these comments before The Supreme Court Judgment which made it very clear.

00:02:36: in terms of the Equality Act the definition Of A Woman is based on biology.

00:02:40: So It'd be interesting To see if like lot his colleagues

00:02:44: backtracks

00:02:45: from this position now that the prevailing cultural winds seem to have changed.

00:02:50: So it's difficult to work out, isn't it?

00:02:52: Whether or not Burnham is supportive of trans rights and LGBTQ plus rights.

00:02:56: Back in twenty nineteen he signed a letter with The Other Labour Mayors.

00:02:59: To Make Gender Recognition Easier He built the first city region LGBT panel In the country.

00:03:05: He pulled public money away From anyone selling conversion therapy And at Manchester Pride he said It flat-out.

00:03:11: I support trans rights.

00:03:13: Well, anyway after the Supreme Court redefined sex as biological a lot of front bench went

00:03:18: quiet.

00:03:19: He called The New Guidance confusing and he went back to live-and-let Live.

00:03:24: And it has cost him Duncan Bannatine.

00:03:26: remember him?

00:03:27: Yeah...he's pulled his money and he took it to restore over precisely this.

00:03:33: So the man now sold is the only one who can stop.

00:03:37: the right Is also the senior figure still holding the line for trans people As that line empties out.

00:03:42: although we didn't speak too much about that on the campaign trail, I'm not going to lie.

00:03:45: Everyone

00:03:46: knows... ...that politics isn't working.

00:03:50: everyone can feel.. ..the country isn't where it should be.

00:03:55: Tonight could just could Be The Turning Point.

00:04:01: From hereon i will give everything i have got To make It So!

00:04:06: To ensure the name Makerfield is forever

00:04:10: synonymous

00:04:12: with bringing about the change this country needs.

00:04:16: Bringing back something we've lost, hope!

00:04:19: Hope for the

00:04:20: future.".

00:04:21: It was a great speech at three o'clock in the morning and I think he meant every word of it.

00:04:25: but play it back and listen to one word that is missing from all those speeches And that word...is Labour on the doorstep.

00:04:32: He didn't run as party, he ran as Andy.

00:04:35: When result was read out it landed exactly like that.

00:04:39: This is Andy's result Labour's

00:04:46: result.

00:05:02: in Makerfield, and it can undoubtedly only be described as a personal triumph of vindication.

00:05:09: Kiyostama did not want him to stand on this by-election – he only acquiesced because his authority was spent… but his premise that is Andy Burnham could take on reform at least in the constituency has been completely vindicated!

00:05:30: Don't listen over the next twenty-four hours.

00:05:33: This was a prime reform target, it was in the top twenty of all Target seats for The Reform Party!

00:05:42: It needed only a modest swing.

00:05:44: as with these figures Reformed and Rob Kenyon barely added to their total at the twenty-twenty four election.

00:05:52: Stammer

00:05:52: didn't want him anywhere near this seat And he gave way Only because his own authority has run completely dry is what the win really sets off.

00:06:02: Not a celebration, it's more of a countdown!

00:06:05: This seat makes Burnham an MP.

00:06:07: being an MP lets him stand for leadership and everyone knows...what happens after that?

00:06:12: So within hours at the declaration the weighed one out from top.

00:06:15: hold the line don't turn on each other which tells you precisely how the result was read in Downing Street.

00:06:20: so How did One Man Turn A Reform Clean Sweep Into A Landslide In Just Six Weeks?

00:06:26: This is the graph, this is the chart that shows just what a remarkable event it's been.

00:06:31: What Andy Burnham managed to do?

00:06:33: If you look at this he got fifty-four point eight percent of the vote.

00:06:37: but look

00:06:38: how small the Liberal Democrat and The Green Vote Is!

00:06:41: There are sort over one percentage points... What does that tell

00:06:44: us?!

00:06:45: That everybody on the left of politics united behind Andy Burnam.

00:06:49: there was only splitting of the votes.

00:06:51: Andy Burnum managed really quite something quite remarkable in getting As it were, the left of politics to all row in behind them.

00:06:58: There was no splitting.

00:06:59: So there is you've seen it The maths on the right reform and restored.

00:07:04: they just couldn't share a room could be.

00:07:06: And this has proved that not everyone's on X But Rupert Lowe's lot siphoned off Just enough To cause reform.

00:07:13: A real problem.

00:07:14: And long may that continue.

00:07:15: On the Left the exact opposite happened.

00:07:18: That kind of miracle scenario really.

00:07:20: Everybody Fused Behind Burnham until the Greens and the Lib Dems barely had a single point.

00:07:27: The Greens, to their credit half got out of the way on purpose I think... ...the first candidate was gone in a day that clearly wasn't on-purpose!

00:07:33: The grandees openly telling people just kindof keep it down because Burnham has apparently said behind scenes that proportional representation looks interesting.

00:07:52: which is why the word packed is certainly everywhere, along with a promise that Burnham as a reformer brings in proportional representation.

00:08:00: Which mends to whole machine.

00:08:02: but then today happened didn't it?

00:08:03: Ask yourself how man stays really keen on changing these rules.

00:08:08: everyone fifty-five percent will see what happens without one.

00:08:13: Now at the part nobody wants to say out loud on a night like this is.

00:08:16: we have seen This film before.

00:08:18: A likable man of The Left rides in, the room goes mad Hope walks back through the door and then We find out what the hope Is going cost?

00:08:25: And it's a lot Of horse trading and its incrementalism.

00:08:27: because Burnham didn't take make you feel by being warmer than Farage.

00:08:32: He took it by standing on a good deal at Farage's ground.

00:08:36: rather disappointingly.

00:08:37: In the week before the vote, he told BBC Radio Manchester that he wants greater use of detention and faster removals for anyone with no valid claim.

00:08:44: And his words... ...that he agrees With what Farage is saying.

00:08:48: The country has to get back sort-of A sense of order.

00:08:53: His back labours own asylum crackdown.

00:08:56: That one was former deputy called on British.

00:08:59: So Before we light the candles The honest question for this audience.

00:09:03: Does a Burnham in number ten make us safer or does it only makes the hostility slightly better spoken?

00:09:09: There's two ways to read, and I'm going have to hold them both at once because right now looks like they're on chance we've got.

00:09:16: he is most trusted most likable communicator.

00:09:18: the left full stop has On that reading.

00:09:21: He keeps the mob off of step And behind that step queer people still get.

00:09:26: government says out loud That its Behind Them.

00:09:30: It's the oldest trade there is and it's only when really we've ever been given as queer people.

00:09:35: The left's great hope walks forward towards power, reaches for migrants to put over on their

00:09:40: side.

00:09:41: Minorities are not one neat block.

00:09:43: A settled gay man in suburbs As white as I am And a queer kid at an asylum centre Are not getting that same deal out of this.

00:09:50: One of them will be safer tomorrow.

00:09:51: The other has more sense about who things are coming from.

00:09:58: And this is where it stops being about one northern seat.

00:10:02: Across the water, Zohan Mandami has now run in New York an insurgent who never filed the edges off free childcare tax-to-rich.

00:10:09: he didn't flinch on migrants to get there back here.

00:10:11: Zach Polanski is dragging The Greens leftward and louder.

00:10:14: He's been very quiet recently strange doesn't him?

00:10:16: At Burnham, neither of them.

00:10:18: He's not the online left-kick in the door-in.

00:10:21: he is The Systems' own man a cabinet minister from twenty years ago who was Home Secretary into Tony Blair and has been let back to the building.

00:10:27: And here's part that should travel.

00:10:29: everyone on every side told us this That this kind of post industrial Brexit votes in fed up town had already gone hard right?

00:10:38: It only mattered time.

00:10:40: And then they went to them and said, here's the hard right.

00:10:42: They said no it is first Red Wolf seat to look reforming in the eye.

00:10:46: so this question should be asked in New York, Berlin or Sydney not just wigging all around the world.

00:10:52: half of people have made a field showing that the rest are beatable by someone who can talk like their actually-people.

00:11:02: Or maybe small print is only way to beat lefts.

00:11:05: It starts sounding just bit like them And that's the thought I can't put down.

00:11:10: If even The King of North, the best hope we have only wins by borrowing the other Lot's lines then what does the Labour Party stand for?

00:11:19: What are the points in parties?

00:11:21: Anyway my guest today has written a whole book with an answer to this question and he answers absolutely nothing!

00:11:26: He says that parties are not the cure for any of these.

00:11:28: they ARE their disease.

00:11:30: Metham Peekin is a businessman, turn author and his book is called Breaking Democracy's Change.

00:11:35: His argument put simply Is that it doesn't matter who wins because the parties under the same outcomes every time.

00:11:41: either way they are The gatekeepers.

00:11:44: They narrowed the choice their manufacture division to keep reformers and insurgents out.

00:11:49: And yes by his account there why the great left hope ends up talking like right?

00:11:54: The moment he nears power?

00:11:56: Because That what party system makes him do is radical.

00:12:01: Meton says that a no-party democracy, power handed straight back to the people who live in.

00:12:08: It's a gold ward winning book, it is real provocation.

00:12:11: I wanted to test from where we sit as queer people because people like us did not get our right by luck.

00:12:17: Section twenty eight equal marriage the equality act Burnham zone LGBTQ plus panel.

00:12:21: every inch of it came from organising inside parties and leaning on them until they actually moved.

00:12:28: so i put the obvious challenge to him take the parties away.

00:12:31: does my minority end up with more protections or less, is a no-party world our liberation?

00:12:37: Or that really serious exposure to something terrifying in?

00:12:52: If you take it a step back, at university I studied political economy.

00:13:17: So i've understood about politics government and so on differently, I suppose to ordinary person on the street if you like with that help of educated background.

00:13:35: And what was striking is we had a right-wing government under Bush in America and we have labor governments supposed left wing government in UK yet they were joining forces under a false premise.

00:14:00: There were no weapons of mass destruction, it was very abundantly clear that the dossier was fixed up.

00:14:07: and whatever terminology is used on today we know London streets are filled with up to million people demonstrating.

00:14:17: similar sort of demonstrations happened across the globe And yet The war had happened.

00:14:23: So With That Bit Of A Background And with what's happened, you sit back and say well do we really live in a democracy?

00:14:36: Here... We're supposed to have left-wing government that looks after the best interests of people because thats how we've seen it in the UK.

00:14:44: Conservatives associated with business lower taxes, lower spending Labour Government more liberal More public services and higher taxes maybe, that's how we perceive things.

00:15:00: That is what the cues are about the politics And when it comes to key issues like surveillance, austerity as seen in a two thousand eight crash, banks were rescued people were lectured about tightening their belts being responsible lights of wars happens under both Labour and Conservatives in the Conservatives, and then I've kind of a gave up and said neither one of those parties is really serving the public.

00:15:36: Just changing faces or parties don't necessarily change their outcomes.

00:15:42: If you want outcomes to change if your own different outcomes You're really do need to question the incentives?

00:15:54: The

00:15:57: incentives, the best example that I can give you in business world let's say just so is simple to understand.

00:16:04: Let's say you employ a salesperson and you give them basic salary And then person will do what necessary What he can get away with basically minimum possible given we've got all this You know, leisure activities around us.

00:16:28: But if you change the incentive to say okay look we're gonna pay you this basic and it's not a voter And hence they can very comfortably ignore The will of people.

00:16:44: So peoples' will is being ignored as seen in Iraq war.

00:16:48: In many instances across spectrum Our representatives, our MPs are not working on behalf of the wider people... ...on behalf of voters.

00:17:07: They're working for the people who finance them.

00:17:12: And these people were oil healthcare?

00:17:13: Yes!

00:17:13: Absolutely

00:17:16: correct Absolutely correct.

00:17:19: And including the special interest groups, you know military industrial complex You name it fossil fuel companies.

00:17:26: So all those people big pharma Big finance so these people big tech Those people have so much more influence on The policies.

00:17:42: and that is where the problem is I suppose my My wake-up call, you know Iraq war was a turning point for me to go into my research.

00:17:53: But my Eureka moment came when I read the federalist papers American founding fathers Two hundred and fifty years ago.

00:18:05: When they Did there or designed their system?

00:18:11: They were dead against political parties.

00:18:18: The reason was that it will, well... It's important to maybe just quote one or two of their points and then we'll go the reasons.

00:18:30: One of the founders had said... One of fathers anyhow said there is nothing I dread more than the republic divided into three great parties which they have now.

00:18:48: One of them had said, if I was not to go to heaven but with a party... ...I would rather not go there at all.

00:19:01: But given the circumstances because they knew factions will capture government.

00:19:05: The factions are group of people who get together and it becomes majority rule over minorities?

00:19:16: And that was the problem they foreseen.

00:19:21: The world they left behind in England and Europe, further afield They've seen how party politics corrupted... ...and how the elite had all their say on this.

00:19:36: So we're

00:19:38: talking about the, I'm going to bring it stuff that's happened quite recently.

00:19:44: The Peter Mandelson is the Epstein class.

00:19:46: That sort of people can hijack through special interest Through dark money, through offshore meets.

00:19:51: It's them.

00:19:52: You suggest they block out our democracy through getting rid of parties.

00:19:57: But then are other parties not scaffolding for legislation and protections?

00:20:02: Historically

00:20:04: Good point.

00:20:04: Yeah good point.

00:20:05: Now look historically Parties had fulfilled their job in a low-information era.

00:20:14: So when there was no television or radio, nor newspaper going back to two hundred and fifty years parties are not part of democracy.

00:20:22: they were not born out of philosophical geniuses.

00:20:28: They were a necessity in the low information era To give people cues.

00:20:33: Now, it's debatable how much cues they have provided... Sorry.

00:20:38: Debatable about how much scuff-holding they've provided for the minorities?

00:20:42: Now take your... The

00:20:44: Rights Act, gay rights in U.S and UK.

00:20:48: I don't see what would have passed without support of certain political structures.

00:20:54: Fair point, but these were not handed down on a plate if we are honest with ourselves.

00:20:59: When did the women's voting rights came in?

00:21:02: How many years after the male suffrage?

00:21:06: The female suffrage was somewhat nearly three four centuries later.

00:21:10: it was nineteen twenties.

00:21:12: yeah so It was two hundred and what two thousand and ten when some of the rights where passed In the legislation I mean in twenty first century.

00:21:20: There is something to be embarrassed of, so democracy was not truly secular free democratic system under the party system.

00:21:31: And I tell you for why it has not been.

00:21:34: now we We need to kind of establish if we take parties out what will put in place a bit.

00:21:41: and what is this structure?

00:21:42: Now all minority rights Has to be taken care off by the Constitution by the law and whatever you, but... Well okay.

00:21:55: Now that's an important question And I do need to explain this structure That we propose putting in place instead of the parties before we can debate that question.

00:22:08: So The structure proposed is this We elect our six hundred or so MPs without a party label.

00:22:23: If you want to go into mechanics of that, we can do.

00:22:26: But if only just for your viewers who follow the argument...

00:22:31: Can I go in detail on the label?

00:22:33: Because you need something about these candidates don't ya?

00:22:36: Absolutely correct!

00:22:37: So let's deal with it and then we'll progress in details.

00:22:41: Yeah yeah so ...I live in Doncaster.

00:22:47: We will have labor greens reform conservative candidates for our MPs, for national general election.

00:22:59: So instead of those labels we will have Graham Seuss and those candidates...

00:23:06: Is that where you vote?

00:23:07: Is it the initial

00:23:07: vote because

00:23:08: parties can't do it Right.

00:23:09: Correct, absolutely.

00:23:10: so those candidates now will have their top ten pledges.

00:23:14: and well no we'll still vote as we do under the current system.

00:23:18: We'll still go to the polling stations And we're still absolutely correct.

00:23:21: So this system does not change.

00:23:24: Always always see different.

00:23:25: is they when we turn up at the polling station?

00:23:31: Graham belonging to Green Party, Metin belonging or representing the Labour party?

00:23:37: kind of a thing.

00:23:38: We are voting for individuals and their policies.

00:23:42: so on the website even in the ballot paper we will see what they stand for... ...what their top pledges are.

00:23:52: What you just put them as like a couple of bullet points wants to reduce work is right once

00:23:59: too Exactly that and up to ten points.

00:24:01: They're top-ten pledges.

00:24:03: That's digestible, that could be five.

00:24:05: there could the six step it top then.

00:24:07: so we will know their position on immigration.

00:24:10: We will know if they've positioned on LGBTQ kind of a position Will know their positions on taxation whatever, wherever the top policies are.

00:24:26: We will know where they stand on this and they'll campaign on that.

00:24:30: so okay we will then vote for those individual representatives That are not enslaved to the party bosses.

00:24:41: questions if you're happy with that.

00:24:42: sure

00:24:44: The US right now?

00:24:45: the UK Right Now?

00:24:49: They are dismantling trans healthcare protections, they'll probably dismantle other health care things for the LGBTQ plus community rolling back queer rights rewriting DEI legislation.

00:25:03: That is happening through a party system.

00:25:05: But but it has also been resisted in part Through a Party System that Democrats For example of The very Brewer Church that there are for all their failures are the organized mechanism of that resistance.

00:25:18: Under your model, where does that organized resistance live?

00:25:23: It's because the power is in the hands of people.

00:25:27: it will be much stronger.

00:25:32: and for this following reason so once we have these independent MPs any group or minority can decide who they want to represent them.

00:25:46: Because the discussion is not whipped, or voting isn't whipped by party bosses there will be negotiations on behalf of any group and we'll find equal rights for everybody.

00:26:02: It's a shame that in this day-in age what we call democracy... ...we're still having to debate these minority rights.

00:26:11: We should, as a society and the community.

00:26:13: we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves that... ...we do not accept any group.

00:26:18: Any people.

00:26:19: Any expression.. ..we should have that freedom.

00:26:21: Your book you end it with Susan Sontag's observation which I find so poignant!

00:26:29: I always said forgive their language.

00:26:31: twenty percent are absolute bastards but this is slightly different in how it lays all out.

00:26:36: The observation is ten per cent cruel Ten percent merciful.

00:26:39: eighty percent following however sets the tone.

00:26:43: Right now, the cruel ten-percent seem to be set in that tone pretty loudly for the...in the medium term let's say yeah Let's say that.

00:26:52: where does your kind of optimism come from?

00:26:54: Do you have any optimism around this?

00:26:56: how do think it is going on?

00:26:59: Yes I do.

00:27:00: yes i really am optimistic but It all depends how much effort we as individuals put in and, you know for various reasons.

00:27:24: Some through leisure others just trying to make ends meet work family kids absolutely busy whatever it is.

00:27:32: but Regardless of what the circumstances are, we're not as bad as the war zone in Palestine.

00:27:39: In Gaza We still have our freedoms and can make a difference.

00:27:47: so we need to unite organize And come to live in twenty first century.

00:27:52: defend Our rights.

00:27:54: don't take it for granted because gradually these will slip.

00:27:58: And you know, one time it was the Labour government that seemed more liberal and so on and so forth.

00:28:04: And Greens were more... Yeah!

00:28:07: ...and what had happened?

00:28:08: Change of leadership.

00:28:10: The policy goes out to the window.

00:28:12: Another group comes in That's against a smaller minority group.

00:28:18: What happens?

00:28:18: They get their priority Because they are not genuinely representing minorities.

00:28:24: They're basically aggregating votes And if they've got a bigger customer there, a bigger sport there.

00:28:30: They will gladly let go of the smaller.

00:28:33: it's just economics but through democracy true representation at the constituency level.

00:28:43: dispersing the power is The biggest guarantee and the biggest power that every minority group will have Is my view.

00:28:54: Thank you so much for coming on.

00:28:55: The book is Breaking Democracies Chains, met in Peking On No Party Democracy a really fascinating chat

00:29:07: thank.