The young gay men jailed for consensual sex in a private home. Using a law from 1533. In 1998.

00:00:00: In January, nineteen ninety-eight seven gay and bisexual working class men from Bolton were convicted at the crown court there of buggery and gross indecency for having consensual sex together in a private home.

00:00:11: No victim no complaint.

00:00:13: some went to prison all of them.

00:00:15: when on the sex offenders register The law used against five was the same one.

00:00:19: use it against Oscar Wilde in eighteen ninety-five.

00:00:22: another one dated from fifteen thirty three in Henry VIII.

00:00:25: The hostility, the creeping normalization of prejudice against gay men is not ancient history.

00:00:31: It's a live wire.

00:00:32: and to understand why you need

00:00:44: Sex.

00:00:45: Fating apps have become a breeding ground for the worst of human behaviours.

00:00:51: What do you want to hold me?

00:00:52: We get together and we... Be simple, be simple!

00:00:56: Be simple for me.

00:00:57: He will like go nush

00:00:58: himself

00:00:58: off.

00:01:00: This is Outcast

00:01:02: World.

00:01:04: Joined on The Show Today by Hugh Sheehan who made a really interesting series with BBC sounds about one year or so ago And for some reason with Tiptoe on Channel Four, and there was a mention in.

00:01:21: I think it's the first episode of TiptoE on channel four when Alan Cumming is talking about various injustices section twenty eight.

00:01:28: He mentions at The Bolton Seven And this is, some people would think it was a niche case.

00:01:35: For some reason I remember this at the back of my mind because there's a queer teenager living in the North West and living in Liverpool.

00:01:43: We took a lot notice on stuff like that.

00:01:46: Hugh joins me now.

00:01:46: good morning!

00:01:47: Good afternoon!

00:01:48: Just good afternoon.

00:01:50: yeah thanks for having us here.

00:01:53: So this is truly an incredible story.

00:01:57: A lot our listeners aren't even going to have heard about this before But you were doing a bit of digging and, um... And you found this case in the Outrage Archives.

00:02:07: I guess it's probably handy for us to make it clear to some international listeners what outrage was?

00:02:15: Maybe we should start at that.

00:02:17: then

00:02:18: why are there archives?

00:02:20: Yeah!

00:02:21: Outrage was again lesbian activism group formed by Peter Tatchell amongst other other activists, and they would campaign around cases like the Bolton Seven.

00:02:34: Cases kind of miscarriages of justice or discrimination and prejudice against LGBTQ plus people.

00:02:43: I guess a similar group in the States would have been ACTOP.

00:02:47: you know A lot European countries had similar groups And They Would You Know Carry Out Civil Disobedience kind of protests.

00:02:57: They would be at protest, the traditional kind of protest.

00:03:00: they were leaflet and lobby.

00:03:03: They'd create petitions or campaigns to being in touch with politicians or legislators And there was a small but incredibly effective an incredibly powerful group who did a lot to shift the dial in terms of queer rights

00:03:22: weren't they?

00:03:25: In the popular narrative, Outrage as a queer kid taking notice of this stuff was deeply unpopular group that took a much different approach to Stonewall didn't it.

00:03:36: They were unpopularly.

00:03:37: so right and like I mean i spoke with Peter Tatchella's part in his series he still... A lot people don't like him because Outrage would not be afraid to stand up and put themselves number one in harm's way but two To make other people feel discomfort and including queer people, they were so ready to inconvenience Other People And Make Them Feel Discomforted To Draw Attention To An Issue.

00:04:06: We can look at civil disobedience groups, activist groups now who are unpopular right?

00:04:12: But I would put a lot of money on it that in twenty thirty years we'll be looking back.

00:04:18: these activists were doing God's work, do you know?

00:04:22: Twenty-five climate protesters I'm thinking.

00:04:24: Yeah right and also you know parallels And i think Palestine action as well.

00:04:28: like there are some of these

00:04:30: absolutely

00:04:31: older folks who have drawn intention to a huge injustice one if not the greatest injustice in our time.

00:04:38: they're being carted away by police officers.

00:04:42: A lot people can see that but a lot.

00:04:46: maybe focus on their own discomfort or kind of how it's inconveniencing them because they're stopping getting to work.

00:04:52: I don't know, anyway there are absolutely parallels

00:04:55: though that we've just scratched the surface off.

00:04:57: then honestly oh so many yeah and i do remember outrage in the early nineties out-in kind of senior politicians and i remember thinking not so bad but in reality they were putting pressure on really conservative politicians.

00:05:10: you went into archives And what were you doing there?

00:05:15: and, um... What kind of things did you find?

00:05:17: Well so initially Outrage's Archive is an online archive.

00:05:21: It's this like really old school nineties HTML site.

00:05:24: You could I wish it was So you can look-it still on line!

00:05:28: You can access it.

00:05:28: its Like again Peter's actual Is SO great at documenting and archiving Things.

00:05:34: So initially when i'd found the case it Was through just Not even searching for anything from there, just kind of scrolling through and being like this is incredible.

00:05:44: This was an incredible artefact at the time both I think in terms of a sociological perspective.

00:05:53: what did activism look like?

00:05:55: In the burgeoning digital age?

00:05:57: how did that manifest online?

00:05:59: How were these people who are absolutely not digital natives using the internet to document their work but then also like a window into what activism looked like at that time, and you know there are these documents of them out in politicians or getting into churches and disrupting services.

00:06:20: And so I was...I think maybe because later on i went to other archives the Bishop's Gate Institute archive and the LSE archive again where Outrage and Peter Tatchell have documented And that opening up this whole of a like world to me of documents and stories, but I remember the outrage online archive.

00:06:42: A guest being like The Stepping Stone into That Like...I don't come from a history background or as you know sociology background.

00:06:48: i've come from music and theatre background so had never really engaged with these treasure troves of information and stories.

00:06:58: So when yeah..when I initially came across the story it was through Pages and then that gave me kind of a window into it.

00:07:08: And just I guess, uh hunger to know more about this story

00:07:12: Read the one of your first reactions was to double check the date because It doesn't feel like something that should have happened in nineteen ninety eight.

00:07:20: Oh, I always think nineteen ninety-eight.

00:07:23: Yeah, no you were six but I was like thirteen and I'm just like things can only get better ringing in your ears.

00:07:28: You know, yeah

00:07:29: Progressive politics is getting somewhere on what?

00:07:32: Then Seven men thrown into prison.

00:07:36: Well, some of them throwing into prison put on the sex offenders register for having completely consensual sex in private and In their own home.

00:07:45: like what was your reaction when you seen that date?

00:07:49: Exactly that nineteen-ninth light in my lifetime.

00:07:51: And I think i think it was also Like The word buggery buggery and gross indecency as well.

00:07:58: I didn't really know What a gross indesense he was.

00:07:59: but buggery else like That's That's archaic.

00:08:03: I mean, that's Henry VIII brought the fifteen-thirties read was when that law was brought in.

00:08:09: but it just like... It related to yeah ancient history, archaics history and i could not connect those two things, nineteen ninety eight and buggery and then gross indecency and seven men.

00:08:22: And so thats the initial kind of spark.

00:08:25: Like THAT IS BUNKERS!

00:08:30: And then finding out it's because of consensual sex, and then finding that five men involved were between the ages of seventeen to twenty-two.

00:08:41: Just thinking Christ if I had such a tough time getting into grips or coming in to understand my queerness when i think back Coming into the world as a person desiring people of the same sex, but coming to understand that you're queer and how difficult That was for me twenty years on Like what is it?

00:09:06: How much does that gonna compound that fear And that shame if you've been criminalized for like not only even without You know Even you know People who weren't caught or criminalised or pursued by the police having that If you saw that case.

00:09:22: If you were seventeen year olds in Bolton or Birmingham, or Liverpool and you see seven Or five lads like you being dragged through the courts You know tabloids running their name through the dirt And you think I don't want that.

00:09:38: Like what's it?

00:09:38: What am i?

00:09:39: how is That going to make you feel as a person who is starting To understand they're queerness?

00:09:43: so now just all of these thoughts Just running through my head and thinking I have to know more about that.

00:09:48: and this also was Googling it, there's a Wikipedia page which has some factual inaccuracies on it.

00:09:55: And then... There was few Guardian Archive articles and I just remember thinking again how is this not the biggest story?

00:10:02: Like Not only in our community but like In general?

00:10:05: How do people know about that?

00:10:07: It was under-reported at the time, wasn't it?

00:10:09: You had to know where... ...to look for information about cases like that.

00:10:14: I find this really weird when we looked back at how did an injustice section twenty eight get put through the books and you look what is it in nineteen eighty seven when they were putting a statue book, nineteen eighty eight That kind of thing.

00:10:24: The amount of coverage.

00:10:28: there was no one talking about it.

00:10:30: And then when it was discussed well this is common sense.

00:10:33: When you look back, how was no attention placed on this?

00:10:39: One of the men is the entry route to prosecution.

00:10:44: The fact that he's seventeen.

00:10:47: What

00:10:48: are the entries then into the reason why they came here?

00:10:51: At

00:10:53: the time age and consent were different for gay men.

00:10:59: homosexuality was supposedly decriminalized in nineteen sixty-seven.

00:11:02: The age of consent were set at twenty one, so five years higher than that of heterosexual people.

00:11:08: and the word just no consent laws for lesbians.

00:11:11: Queen

00:11:12: Victoria?

00:11:12: It's nonsensical right.

00:11:15: it's just like...it's just nonsentical.

00:11:18: I mean even that comes down to like them penetrative nurse and all that is like..It's just rooted in such like nonsensible idea ideology.

00:11:28: Um, there was then a drive to equalize the age of consent which didn't it.

00:11:34: It didn't pass but The Age Of Consent Was Then Loaded To Eighteen In Ninety Three.

00:11:37: I'd Have To Check The Date On That But I Think Nineteen Ninety Two Throughout The Nineties.

00:11:43: There Was Then A Campaign To Equalise The Age of Consent And We Can Get Onto That In A Bit.

00:11:49: But At The Time, Ninety-Ninety Seven Which Is When The Sex Happened, Age Of Concerts Were Still Different And so this was one of the problems.

00:11:59: The other, in the sixty-seven decriminalization there's a stipulation that sex between two men had to happen in private and interpreted in many different ways by different police forces, different CPS.

00:12:12: Kind of different jurisdictions with the CPS, Crown Prosecution Service.

00:12:16: but essentially what it meant or could mean is that had to happen at a privately owned home windows and doors shut.

00:12:22: nobody else's house couldn't be a bedsit, couldn't have rented room, technically couldn't been hotel.

00:12:27: It has to be a privately-owned home.

00:12:30: So if you

00:12:31: rented

00:12:32: off a landlord

00:12:34: then... It would.

00:12:35: it could be used in that way.

00:12:36: He could like the police what?

00:12:37: The police forces could use essentially to their whims and so, essentially That's why I think men.

00:12:45: And so because of these two stipulations if enough now II guess to elaborate a bit more on the product the privacy thing Then meant there was more than one person present or more than two people present.

00:12:58: then These People Could Technically Be Prosecuted which is mad, right?

00:13:06: Because there were straight people having group sex.

00:13:11: Lord knows that many-many straight people are having straight sex from the advent of time.

00:13:16: so... The reason that was included in these stipulations again nonsensical and myriad.

00:13:25: but essentially if you broke either of those two laws one of participants in this sex would be either sixteen or seventeen where there was more than two people present, you could then be prosecuted for buggery or gross and decency.

00:13:38: Now buggery being this law from fifteen thirty-three.

00:13:41: so it's just mad loophole.

00:13:43: because if straight people um... For example had like.. There was one uh a member of a heterosexual couple One who is sixteen ,one whose fifteen the law would different.

00:13:53: they wouldn't be prosecuting in the same way.

00:13:55: but It was only gay men homosexuals who could be convicted of gross indecency, which was an ambiguous term catch all time Which again police forces would use and abuse as they pleased.

00:14:08: Did it mean like?

00:14:11: But did it genuinely just depend on you know what the judge the prosecutor a lot?

00:14:16: yeah Yeah essentially It meant masturbation oral sex all over the frontage Like if you know these These Police Forces Would Use at how They Wanted And but could also mean just sex with more than one other person.

00:14:33: So if there are three people present and they're engaging in non-penetrative sex, gross indecency as soon as anal sex comes into the picture.

00:14:42: that's when buggery can be used as well.

00:14:44: it's so bizarre!

00:14:45: And still... It is so hard to get my head around because I'm like... So anal sex between two people not a problem in private home As soon as third person come into that private home.

00:14:55: buggery buggery.

00:15:00: Yeah It's ridiculous, isn't it?

00:15:02: Just my mind was taken back then to that.

00:15:03: fifteen thirty-three law is the reason a lot of former British Empire countries still have buggery on the statute books.

00:15:11: He had lots once for Henry VIII didn't he?

00:15:14: You couldn't speak too any of The Bolton Seven directly could you?

00:15:19: what's this story around That

00:15:21: one?

00:15:22: at the men in prison One of them died.

00:15:25: What

00:15:26: he's imprisoned for do we not know?

00:15:29: We do and I discussed this in the last episode of a series.

00:15:33: he.

00:15:34: it's really, really difficult thing to think about essentially.

00:15:39: In the years following the case.

00:15:43: He went so essentially when i'd started researching the case we've been green lit with gone into production And then one of them end at The Bolton Seven.

00:15:52: Norman was found guilty at Bolton Crown Court have multiple counts sexually assaulting and raping children.

00:16:02: And that happened in the years following... ...the case of The Bolton Seven, so

00:16:07: they- So you weren't a young man but was

00:16:10: he?

00:16:10: He was thirty two at the time, thirty two or thirty three um..and so in the year's following the case apparently yeah this happened.

00:16:18: I'd have to check the details.

00:16:19: But what does it say

00:16:20: about putting people into prison and the cycle of what

00:16:23: happens?

00:16:24: It is really difficult thing to contemplate.

00:16:28: I'm not one to say, because some people have spoken to me being like do you think this was as a result of his trauma from the judicial system?

00:16:36: And i'm not want to draw comparisons there.

00:16:38: We don't know all for awful people just do awful things and that is the same in marginalized communities and other communities and that's absolutely no reason to afford them rights.

00:16:50: if anything it has proved Those people all the same but it is absolutely not a reason to afford them rights.

00:17:02: and I think when we were making this series, It was such a curveball because these seven men had been treated so awfully by the state.

00:17:12: By the press, by the public.

00:17:15: And then one of them went on to do these heinous things.

00:17:19: But how do we still kind of honor and bear witness to these, To their awful ordeal?

00:17:26: And I think it's someone acknowledge both.

00:17:28: Both happen in this world.

00:17:29: two things can be true at the same time exactly

00:17:32: right

00:17:33: yeah so um How do you tell some one story with empathy when you haven't been given Directly straight from the horse's mouth.

00:17:42: And again, there is a further comp... You're managing to tell this story with empathy whilst holding some quite conflicting information about one of people involved because essentially that thing about The Bolton Sevens it could really have happened to any of us That

00:17:55: were having sex

00:17:56: at that point.

00:17:57: It could've happened to me when I was just sixteen, seventeen.

00:18:02: Yeah exactly no it couldn't.

00:18:03: and i think Again This Is another ethical kind of quandary we had To deal With in the series.

00:18:09: How do you tell the story of people who have been through such an awful ordeal?

00:18:15: You know, and abuse of power are human rights injustice.

00:18:18: And a kind of an ordeal, a traumatic ordeal if you can't speak to them for whatever reason because some of then we couldn't track down one of them.

00:18:28: I did speak too on it just didn't come to fruition from whatever reason.

00:18:38: in a way that is compassionate and human, an honest story.

00:18:44: And I think it isn't black-and-white right?

00:18:46: It's not the case.

00:18:47: of their stories on public demand therefore should be told but i guess what comes down to what is in the public interest from a journalistic and editorial perspective its like?

00:18:59: Is this story in the Public Interest?

00:19:01: for me just totally.

00:19:03: is This that the police and the CPS had to answer for, hadn't been made to answer.

00:19:14: And I guess also we didn't really delve into the men's personal lives... They're more the figures that are travelling through this vessel or framework and it's more to expose the framework as opposed them.

00:19:33: We were lucky enough to get Archive of some men speaking, which added real texture colour and personal detail but actually... The main character in this story is the justice system and how broken was-and-is kind of thing.

00:19:50: other people involved in the case as many people who were there at a time, who had similar experiences and we're more kind of able or willing to talk about them.

00:19:59: And so just adding as many perspectives on elements of color and texture but trying to be as compassionate possible and sensitive these men's stories without... The other thing was like not sensationalizing it.

00:20:14: That was myself and my exec producer Anish Gashama, who is such a powerhouse.

00:20:19: And has made so many incredible documentaries about human rights injustices.

00:20:23: We're both against the sensationalisation of people's trauma especially minority groups and people that have been at the hands of miscarriages of justice and state abuses really.

00:20:37: So if these men voices are not inherently part absolutely right by them and honour their experiences in their ordeal.

00:20:49: How much do you think class matters?

00:20:51: This has been brought up time again, hasn't it?

00:20:53: like these are all of the working-class men from Bolton in Greater Manchester.

00:21:04: I think there's probably a class element to how those people were treated.

00:21:08: but would a group middle-class man being investigated period being put through the same ordeal.

00:21:15: There's

00:21:17: undoubtedly a class element for sure, I mean even to begin with in-in The Law right when we were discussing that privacy stipulation.

00:21:25: if this is sex between you know two men has to happen In a private residence With nobody else present doors locked windows shut.

00:21:33: who has access To those kind of spaces?

00:21:36: The middle classes Right?

00:21:38: so already You Know Douglas Stewart In the series talks really eloquently and that He when he started becoming sexually active it would be to me older middle-class men because they had access To these spaces.

00:21:52: And so They got to control the sexual Congress, and so you know It's a class.

00:21:57: follow his comes out with this beautiful line That class follows you all the way to the mattress cuz it really does.

00:22:03: So even in Yeah, I think even baked into the law.

00:22:08: The fact that it has to happen in total privacy is like effect is gonna you know Overwhelmingly affect the working class more than it is going to affect people with access to their own private spaces which Is just an inherently class-based Access.

00:22:26: As

00:22:26: usual money and access will cloak you from

00:22:31: yeah exactly.

00:22:32: And then as well You know, yeah these were seven working class men from Bolton's.

00:22:38: One of them worked in a factory one of the works as maintenance worker and up in our hotel.

00:22:44: several of them are unemployed.

00:22:47: they weren't?

00:22:49: you know?

00:22:49: there were incredibly salt with the earth.

00:22:51: people who without... And these sorts of people where their law can be used to crack down on their behaviour, maybe more so than it would be the middle classes.

00:23:07: And we'd have less defences I guess... Less resources, less money, less time and energy and less kind of knowledge of the law or legal system.

00:23:19: You know if you go into If you go into a core, and I think...I will extend this also to Parliament.

00:23:25: How's the parliament?

00:23:26: There are wigs!

00:23:28: And there were ceremonies in their language.

00:23:31: That is exactly the same rituals that uh You know if you go to private school or these sorts of institutions Or if your going up the ox bridges.

00:23:41: These are all institutions The working classes or people from seven working class men from Bolton Are made to feel unwelcoming And that's, I mean.

00:23:50: That's the thing i think about a lot.

00:23:52: actually it just like who are these institutions are inherently for specific kind of person or they're meant to benefit?

00:23:57: A specific kinda person.

00:23:59: They aren't meant to Benefit Seventeen year old Craig from Bolton Who works as maintenance assistant.

00:24:04: him coming into These spaces Like those spaces Are inherently geared towards a person with from a specific background right and so that For me Just feels just like a totally unjust Thing anyway.

00:24:15: So at every step Of The way these men You know, they're up against it.

00:24:20: Right?

00:24:20: And even education like section twenty-eight you know a lot we spoke about Section twenty eight meant that nobody was taught About these laws anyway Not that they might have been but They weren't taught about These laws.

00:24:31: when It did happen it happened in A council house So technically not our private residence and there Was more than two of them.

00:24:38: Then they get to the court Maybe less eloquent Or their less able To interact with this kind Of juggernaut of a court system than somebody who comes from um, uh more middle class background might be able to.

00:24:51: and so every step of the way you're kind of fighting a losing battle.

00:24:54: Um So yeah I think classes baked into it at Every Step Of The Way.

00:25:00: Why did Greater Manchester Police come at this?

00:25:03: So hard?

00:25:05: because i've been reading that in different parts of the country there was those different approaches.

00:25:11: so why...why then

00:25:14: Up until one nineteen ninety-one, Greater Manchester Police had been led by Chief Constable James Anderton who would have been there for I'd have to check the dates but fourteen fifteen years.

00:25:23: Um and he was a rabid homophobe like vitriolic absolutely vitriolic based in like a fundamentalist christian kind of view.

00:25:36: that gay is wrong.

00:25:38: You know, there are some awful quotes about him speaking about men with AIDS and sex workers.

00:25:43: just being this man so devoid of empathy and compassion... And he ran an incredibly homophobic police force and actively encouraged the cracking down promiscuous and kind of deviant activities.

00:26:06: Now he retired in nineteen ninety-one, um... And another chief constable took over who I want to say his name is David Woolmott which i'd have to double check.

00:26:18: but ...and this man Chief Constable Woolmotte who took over was was more lenient and was more amicable.

00:26:26: And Ian Wilmot, who I talked to as part of the series... ...who is The Greater Manchester Lesbian and Gay Policing Initiative lead.. ..who set up that organisation?

00:26:33: to be a go-between between the queer community & police.

00:26:36: so it's the repair relationships He really like forthcoming with that he would visit.

00:26:45: You know, Ian talks about him going to visit a sex shop once because the police have been raiding gay sex shops as well.

00:26:51: For what reason?

00:26:52: Who knows but had raided clubs... Gay clubs maybe with a dark room in the basement.

00:26:58: But we're raiding gays clubs regularly.

00:26:59: Gays clubs and gay bars I'm are raiding gaisex shops And kind of bookshops regularly again.

00:27:04: To what end?

00:27:05: who knows to seek

00:27:08: out

00:27:09: potentially yeah sometimes yes

00:27:12: The reasoning behind that.

00:27:15: Yeah, I mean there's one story of a club in Manchester called The Mineshaft getting raided and i think nineteen ninety four.

00:27:22: And you know multiple men being charged and convicted of gross indecency for bein' In A Dark Room?

00:27:33: This is happening in a basement, In the club.

00:27:38: What end are we doing this?

00:27:39: And one of the arresting officers there's A man who I interviewed as part The series Who tells the story Of you know going out Going on night out with his pal He was visiting and they go to mine shafts.

00:27:50: They're in their Parnaces and jockstraps It just in dark room.

00:27:56: At that point no actual sex Was even happening.

00:27:59: Then police raid it Torches everywhere and the arresting officers get their gloves on.

00:28:04: And I guess this is still, you know during AIDS epidemic era right?

00:28:08: The arresting officer gets his gloves on to treat them with total disgust.

00:28:11: It's

00:28:12: like the raid of the RVT in the ACs if...

00:28:15: Exactly!

00:28:16: The Gloves

00:28:16: on it that everyone will have AIDS or evidence going around people's minds.

00:28:20: Yeah

00:28:21: yeah.

00:28:21: and then apparently one of the arrested officers said there could be kids here.

00:28:25: Well, no they couldn't.

00:28:27: It's an eight-in plus venue.

00:28:28: what you want about?

00:28:28: like it?

00:28:29: just the mental gymnastics that I think...

00:28:33: It's straight to kids every time isn'it?

00:28:35: Exactly!

00:28:36: They could be kids in here and know this.

00:28:38: yeah we're checking IDs on a door.

00:28:40: Yeah And i think its all ...the moral panic around predation is again consistently baked into homophobia.

00:28:47: Now it's baked in to transphobia, the rhetoric I think that... In-in the nineties th-the campaign to equalize age of consent.

00:28:54: if you look at reporting a time It is like I think there's one Daily Mail article that I found by a woman who is still broadcast on the BBC sometimes.

00:29:04: Is

00:29:05: it Melanie Phillips?

00:29:06: It isn't her, but she has the same sort of rhetoric right and she factually states gay men are seventeen times more likely to be paedophiles than straight people.

00:29:18: That is just outright bigotry like fascistic bigotery.

00:29:24: But then this article goes onto say you know, if we let kids learn about homosexuality early on then it'll turn them and its like the contagion model of queerness which is just as any queer person knows.

00:29:38: get gay by seeing a drag queen when you're fourteen or whatever.

00:29:41: It's like, it so nuts!

00:29:43: Like... What was that language

00:29:44: Melanie Phillips used in the late nineties?

00:29:46: Because I remember taking particular attention to it and it was the term proselytising gay men which comes from Christians going out trying to convert people into Christianity And really stood out for me as an unusual choice of word For what she thought is going on.

00:30:02: So

00:30:03: The officer and prosecutor?

00:30:05: they never spoke.

00:30:07: I mean, it seems clear to me why they wouldn't do that.

00:30:09: But Why Do You Think It Was?

00:30:13: So They

00:30:13: Know It Hasn't Aged Well?

00:30:16: You'd think so!

00:30:17: Like...it wasn't for want of trying because there were the people who was like, uh..I have to sit down with them and I HAVE TO SIT DOWN WITH THEM BECAUSE MY OWN EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN SO TOUGH AND SO TO KNOW HOW THE WAY THAT THESE SEVEN MEN WERE TREATED WAS SO INFINITELY WORSE THAN THE EXPERICES THAT I HAD.

00:30:37: Why, why do you regret it?

00:30:40: And I know the answer would have been we were just following the law at that time which i think is THE biggest cop out of all time.

00:30:47: Law enforcement and prosecutors had been parrots in those lines since the dawn on a time... ...and I just think there's absolutely no excuse for enacting kind-of bigotry with the name of the law.. ..and they also think actually police forces weren't using these laws anymore!

00:31:06: They weren't, like... Nineteen ninety-eight seemed so late because other police forces had actually stopped using these laws and that was a thing when this new chief constable came in.

00:31:16: There was an active drive towards repairing the police's relationship with the queer community.

00:31:22: So how did

00:31:23: they end up doing it then?

00:31:24: What do we know?

00:31:26: Nobody knows!

00:31:28: Bolton Police Force is part of Greater Manchester Police but would be a specific I guess station or collection of stations.

00:31:38: So whether it was somebody in Bolton who has, you know had a particular chip on their shoulder weather is this specific prosecutor.

00:31:45: but again I spoke to Barristers Who knew her and said she was quite level-headed normally and quite like pragmatic.

00:31:52: so And so It's that was what one.

00:31:55: other things?

00:31:55: I'd love to have got gotten into the bottom off.

00:31:57: But again i just think it Is Like A symptom Of The Justice System In The State That It Isn't.

00:32:02: If There Are Laws That Exists That are Bigoted a police force that there is bigotry and prejudice baked in, which the police absolutely has.

00:32:12: Then it might not be kind of spearhead for these sorts of prosecutorial campaigns.

00:32:19: they just are whipped up an end-up being shunted into this system.

00:32:24: but yeah I don't know as to answer to that.

00:32:26: i wish I did or had the chance to sit down with them say why?

00:32:29: And do you regret?

00:32:33: New Labour took five years after this to abolish the offence of gross indecency, which is actually the same law that was used against Oscar Wilden when he was arrested in eighteen ninety-five.

00:32:45: That delay cost some people their freedom and thats something not very often examined about new labour.

00:32:54: I guess where we'd got by the end of the Labour government, when we've got equalisation at the age of consent in section twenty-eight was in the bin and were headed towards equal marriage.

00:33:03: Do you think that a bit of blame lies with that new labour Government?

00:33:09: This is difficult.

00:33:10: one yes or no.

00:33:13: Jack Straw tried to attach an equalising of the Age Of Consent Um, but the party and the Lord's threatened to shout him down or to tank.

00:33:30: look at the whole crime in disorder bill if he didn't remove that stipulation.

00:33:33: And with that probably would have then become the amendment so gross indecency um and so age of consent essentially was a big thing throughout the nineties and the activists were looking for equality in terms And then eventually when it was brought, I think as a private member's bill the House of Lords vetoed twice actually.

00:34:00: So The Labour Party had to enact Parliament Act which is where they can essentially bypass the Lords and pass certain bit of legislation.

00:34:10: but... Evan Harris, who was a Lib Dem MP and he thinks they should have done more.

00:34:23: He thinks that they should've fought to pass it.

00:34:25: And Jack Straw's argument is the We can.

00:34:29: we can Have us kind of an incredibly forward-thinking version of politics in An idealistic version of Politics where yes will come straight into government Will pass this law or will pass this legislation especially In terms of you know The working classes on marginalised people.

00:34:46: but it still has to be gradually worked and gradually, so I don't know essentially.

00:34:54: Like i would like to be in a world where idealistic politics can manifest and we can vote-in and have parties that are going to just enact policies that make the lives of marginalised people better without having to be like oh well do this slowly but then there is such resistance to those policies that maybe things do have to be done gradually.

00:35:19: So yeah, I don't know what...I think definitely blame Dozlo of them for sure!

00:35:23: For things being so slow like in you know in in ninety-eight and ninety nine despite then kind of putting effort into equalising the age of consent.

00:35:36: um and to scrap section twenty eight it did take too long.

00:35:46: Do you think that the Bolton Seven case was part of why the law eventually changed?

00:35:51: Blair's new labour had come in and Keane, who is a back bench.

00:35:54: It also like a spearheading this there were... I mean actually again going to the archives You can see letters straw and keen have written to people, and people writing back agreeing.

00:36:04: And saying this is something that I agree with and should be passed but we need do it in a way.

00:36:09: that's going... Classic

00:36:11: labour incrementalism thing?

00:36:13: Yeah

00:36:14: the intramentalism of all!

00:36:16: So again its hard say.

00:36:18: i'd think this case was such.

00:36:24: It was a blow to new labour and especially their version of what they wanted the relationships with police.

00:36:33: I think it's a blow on how they want to be seen in terms of treating LGBT people.

00:36:39: They were already driving to scrap section twenty eight and you know equalised the age consent.

00:36:46: The Bolton Seven appealed this case, the appeals court didn't see.

00:36:50: so they took And before the European Court of Human Rights could see it, The British government then settled which was an indicator that OK.

00:36:59: The law is going to change and so in a way I think It Could have been a catalyst or part Of a catalyst for the law changing?

00:37:06: I certainly Think it would Have contributed To That momentum For getting Enough weight behinds the bills and then forgetting them through the lords for sure.

00:37:20: But it's yeah, It's hard to know whether these men would just cannon fodder?

00:37:23: And its you know...it's difficult to say!

00:37:28: I always think that it is so tragic we have to have this kind of expendable figureheads to go through..to be spapped though the justice system So as to decide.

00:37:41: oh actually These laws do need changing

00:37:44: And it's easier when they're working class gay men without much of the way of agency, shrouded in shame where they don't want to really kick them off.

00:37:50: That makes some perfect fodder for their system.

00:37:53: It was a really fascinating chat and it is good to learn more about that remembering those headlines from the nineteen nineties.

00:38:01: if you were a queer teenager at that time You would truly tell terrified if this happened.

00:38:05: so I appreciate your doing that.

00:38:08: If anyone wants to hear these series five parts isn't it?

00:38:14: Yeah.

00:38:14: We're on BBC Sounds and Spotify, Apple Podcasts wherever you get your podcasts And it's called Criminally Queer The Bolton Seven.