Britain’s New Gender Panic

00:00:00: This

00:00:00: is Outcast World and today we are talking about a ruling that could reshape public life in Britain for trans people, but also anyone who's ever stepped outside the narrow boundaries of what people decide a man or woman supposed to look like.

00:00:14: Because this isn't about trans rights anymore.

00:00:16: it's about who gets policed?

00:00:18: Who get questioned?

00:00:19: And who gets made feel out-of-place on their own body... Their own workplace.. Their own local pub gym or toilet, the EHRC guidance dropped like a bombshell.

00:00:27: It was confusing it was chaotic and it sent fear right through the queer community.

00:00:31: Jamie Werem and The Team at Queer AF have spent the last few years doing some of the smartest most forensic reporting anywhere in queer media cutting through the panic ,the spin & bad faith.

00:00:40: And today Jamie is here to explain where we are now what this ruling actually means.

00:00:44: he's going try find some positive points there.

00:00:47: He has found them!

00:00:49: If you're a butch lesbian or anyone who is remotely gender non-conforming, Britain all of a sudden feels like So it

00:01:06: was...

00:01:08: It was shocking all, wasn't it?

00:01:31: Before the weekend when The news just dropped about the EHRC and I feel like nobody really had a chance to process it.

00:01:45: An appalling injustice really, I think for anyone who hasn't been following this hour by hour.

00:01:57: Could you just walk me through it?

00:01:58: Supreme Court ruling, EHRC guidance code of practice before Parliament.

00:02:04: What's the situation?

00:02:05: what has happened?

00:02:05: have we got here?

00:02:07: yeah so You know if we speed back to that.

00:02:09: a year ago We had a decision in The supreme court there.

00:02:12: no one expected not any One and the judiciary not only on the media Not Anyone in the LGBTQA plus charity sector that a woman is defined by the Equality Act.

00:02:23: Very specifically, The Equality Acts no longer included trans women which obviously had an impact on the reverse of trans men and more broadly big questions over anyone who's gender diverse, trans plus non-binary where they fit within society.

00:02:41: Over the last year we have had countless court cases trying to challenge make it clearer, make it defined.

00:02:50: And those have been brought by both protrans and anti-trans forces.

00:02:54: What we have after all of that is anything but clarity despite what the politicians in some pundits are saying.

00:03:03: This week We got another curveball which Is also designed to create a sense of clarity But I think further adds to the you know compounds.

00:03:13: The confusion were all in.

00:03:15: So the EHRC, The UK's Equality Watchdog has produced something called the Code of Practice.

00:03:21: It is something they've already had to rewrite once since the Supreme Court after the Equalities and Education Minister Bridget Phillipson sent it back for a redraft.

00:03:31: so this was a re-drafted version of the code practice And what that says is trans people are protected from discrimination but it also then sets out how you can quite lawfully, for one of a better phrase discriminate against trans people or exclude them.

00:03:50: What is important to take away though as a top line look at that sort of like speed through what has been really confusing and long year Exclusion, we was expecting it to be forced.

00:04:05: We were expecting the government and the HRC to say you must exclude trans people.

00:04:11: It hasn't done that...it has said we recommend in most situations You exclude transpeople but it leaves room open for People to remain Trans inclusive and I think that's a really important takeaway.

00:04:27: That everyone needs to hear because it's being lost in the very understandable fear, anguish worry And you know headlines from their usual culprits that don't kind of give them nuance there.

00:04:39: story like this deserves.

00:04:42: The Good Law Project was doing a lot of work on this, weren't they?

00:04:46: It's very complex what has gone on.

00:04:47: People just think these things go through straight away but it is going for review and back in the review.

00:04:51: I believe the good law project managed to get some changes that were...I'm not gonna say its watered this down But certainly softened the edges.

00:05:00: Its really interesting if you can see there.

00:05:01: This kind of pushes the onus almost policing gender Right Back Down To The People.

00:05:08: So now we are not giving anything.

00:05:09: You know..you can or maybe not confuses people.

00:05:12: The EHRC says transpeople won't be left without any facilities at all, the organisations have a duty not to leave them

00:05:20: stranded."

00:05:21: In practice how much comfort does that offer?

00:05:24: I mean there's not always a disabled toilet is there?

00:05:26: what are we going move into our world where it's just disabled and trans people saying well...what is gonna

00:05:30: happen?".

00:05:30: Well

00:05:31: that i think.

00:05:32: part of this problem with this guidance is that it toes the line like all the way through by saying We're not actually doing it like trans people, we are saying that trans people need to have services.

00:05:42: But then it says... but they aren't supposed.

00:05:44: the level of services that cisgender men and cisgender women have And therefore the best option given.

00:05:53: no one's got any money.

00:05:54: The economy is bad so you can't ask all your toilets from single sex to gender neutral.

00:06:02: you know, it's probably just easier to put them in the disabled loop.

00:06:04: That is kind of an overwhelming outcome and I'm simplifying but there are significant parts that say this quite specifically.

00:06:14: That will be a problem not for trans people who have been pushed into third space which essentially by law treats them like a third gender or sex.

00:06:25: It also causes problems for disabled people who already struggle with accessibility to these spaces because they too have not, for very long been afforded protection or requirements be provided as spaces.

00:06:39: And so it's sort of a bit of double whammy in that this was intended on some level.

00:06:45: This all happened because there are forces that want to harm the trans community.

00:06:49: but we haven't just harmed the Trans Community.

00:06:51: They've harmed many more.

00:06:53: And as you alluded to, part of the thing that we've seen with any legislation or laws there are about bathrooms based on gender create a gender policing kind of narrative.

00:07:05: So we're already seeing in the last year some quite high profiles significantly known cisgender women being attacked or abused in women's toilets because they don't look woman enough.

00:07:19: One of the things we wrote in The Newsletter and Gareth this weekend is you know, there should be a wake-up call for anyone that maybe hasn't been following us closely.

00:07:27: And I'm speaking specifically to kind of gay men who think This isn't been a thing that bothers me You know?

00:07:33: We as a community whether are men that don't have sex with women unless we're bi, right?

00:07:42: And so that's... We're not already not man enough in their views.

00:07:50: We are the sort of people that will now begin to get questioned for whether we should belong in these spaces.

00:07:55: That's next, and it is what we're not far away

00:07:58: from.".

00:08:01: A lot of stuff on TikTok from people in the trans community, essentially crying.

00:08:24: Like I have forty days left... ...of my ability to exist in public life.

00:08:28: a forty-day scrutiny window?

00:08:29: Is there any realistic chance that this might be stopped?

00:08:33: and what's queer AFs position on what should happen

00:08:37: now?".

00:08:38: So i think it is very unlikely that it's going to get challenged in Parliament.

00:08:43: So we're not gonna bore you with the ins and outs of Parliaments, but like the top line is... It's a really high barrier for this to be stopped.

00:08:52: A massive coalition Of cross-party MPs would need to gather together Put an amendment put the amendment to a vote And then have to carry Even then its'nt actually a vote.

00:09:03: That turns down Its'a strong recommendation.

00:09:07: The government should rethink This.

00:09:09: so even if all you know, high coalition of numbers comes together.

00:09:13: The government can ignore it anyway.

00:09:15: largely that's like the top line version but there is a little bit more Westminster politics that goes into all of this.

00:09:21: so I think its very unlikely within the four today window that theres going to be any space for that coalition together.

00:09:28: i think in terms of next stage where this now moves towards challenging it continues.

00:09:36: You're going to have groups like Good Law Project, but others too challenging it trying to you know in some ways water it down or challenge whether it makes sense because if it doesn't make sense then they will need to be rewritten.

00:09:49: that's the kind of action we are gonna see uh In the courts I think.

00:09:53: The other thing though That is really interesting and this what Quareff was writing about This weekend And our newsletter Was... an option.

00:10:06: There is a choice to be trans-inclusive and so it's up to organisations, It's up businesses And its people like us To making sure that being trans inclusive Is the norm That single sex spaces don't remain single sex space.

00:10:24: Part of code allows you to say well if there isn't a single sex place anymore If your allowing trans people in it

00:10:29: So not problem with that?

00:10:30: To do at Equality Act At The Moment where I was reading about this earlier where some people are going to be unable to define themselves under the Equalities Act as a single sex space if they become trans-inclusive.

00:10:41: That's right, but it is not a single Sex Space then its' not a Single Sex Space and so you know there're ways that...I think as we unpack my thing which i've been saying has actually since The Supreme Court If We all take the decision that Trans Inclusive Is what were gonna Be Then Were just got.

00:10:58: work out how To do that within This Code leaves room for that option.

00:11:05: So what is now really important, we all talk about how to deliver the option at the largest possible scale and doing a conversation on local level over the country then making... What I think this code of practice tries through the back door but it doesn't in its very slight way being transphobic the norm, because it's just easier frankly to implement the transphobic version of this.

00:11:32: So I think we as a community have a lot agency to ensure that... We show that actually being trans inclusive isn't just A good option but you know The right option by history and also the kind Of options shows your business That cares about all people And i don't need To explain why that works economically.

00:11:56: What I'm thinking now is you're saying that there doesn't currently exist the coalition politically to kind of make.

00:12:01: changes need to be made.

00:12:05: But if we get proportional representation from Andy Burnham, I don't know just throwing it out there do think?

00:12:09: That's like a more safe and less politically explosive option for the likes of The Labour Party who are convinced their base hates trans people.

00:12:20: maybe they'll offers.

00:12:22: Yeah, absolutely.

00:12:22: I think if we're talking about the arenas rather than whether or not it will get proportional representation... I would say fingers crossed that'd be good news for democracy as well.

00:12:32: but

00:12:34: politics could solve this you know?

00:12:36: Politics is all about defining the law.

00:12:39: The courts are making sure the law works.

00:12:42: so the courts have said the way we understand the law-works.

00:12:48: politicians could have the opportunity to rewrite that law and make it trans-inclusive, and change the Equality Act.

00:12:53: So yeah absolutely.

00:12:55: there is a political way to solve this.

00:12:58: what I think we don't have at the moment in any sense that this issue as a priority isn't.

00:13:04: trans people are our priority to help and support.

00:13:08: It's not politically popular on the side of Trans People At The Moment.

00:13:13: That's another thing i think our community would like to change.

00:13:19: This all boils down to, when did the cast review come out?

00:13:22: Was it in

00:13:23: twenty-twenty

00:13:27: three years ago.

00:13:28: So we were under a conservative government at that time and yeah... We're on kind of change over period.

00:13:33: And um It was presented as an evidence based review That would settle everything At the heart Of trans issues.

00:13:40: with somebody who is respected I mean anybody With marginally critical eye looks the profile of a person who was doing it and how he's carried out, I believe that no trans people were consulted in the CAS review.

00:13:53: How can this happen?

00:13:54: It sits at the foundation.

00:13:56: so much policy and the BMA wouldn't implement its recommendations...how compromised is the CAS Review?

00:14:03: And does government understand that it's compromised or even

00:14:06: care?".

00:14:07: Yeah, so I think it evidenced base review yes but also dismissed ninety eight percent of the evidence that was supportive of gender affirming care because it deemed to low quality.

00:14:21: trying to be devil's advocate here.

00:14:23: If you base the conclusion they made on the evidence that I had, it makes sense that they reached that conclusion

00:14:30: but

00:14:30: left out a lot of the evidence and so thats why its internationally been discredited And i really do mean internationally.

00:14:40: one other thing we do with our newsletter is troll the receipts all over the world It does feel like were two years since it came out in.

00:14:49: It feels almost still weekly or monthly that a new international study comes out and disproves, uh... ...or shows how you know scientifically poorly done.

00:15:00: it was done as a piece of research.

00:15:02: But to your other question yes!

00:15:04: Is an absolute back-backstop for everything That is coming off the government.

00:15:11: You know we don't have West Street in our secretary anymore But it was, you know held up by streeting behind every decision.

00:15:20: You know this is the cash review set.

00:15:21: that's its gold standard and so It has become one of things we've seen from all governments but been particularly acute in the last Conservative government and this Labour Government.

00:15:33: Is them looking for or creating data And reports That provide them a shield

00:15:44: build a whole new architecture around it.

00:15:46: What are?

00:15:46: often very sturdy themselves, but they find this one review that backs up their point even if you know, ninety-nine percent of the other reviews don't?

00:15:54: If they can find one study to stand behind They will stay on behind and is about being... That allows them to claim data driven.

00:16:03: Well actually what there are is ideologically driven And becoming an increasingly used tool.

00:16:11: There's been criticism The media, in particular the national press.

00:16:18: Last time you and me seen each other was... ...in one of those buildings when I was doing work for a company that had its LGBTQ thing going on.

00:16:28: but at the same time it has all this stuff going on And then there's bizarre bunfight.

00:16:32: It is stuck in the same place!

00:16:35: I'm sure you can imagine things i've seen and heard.. ..and ermm....I didn't know people thought like that until l was in them spaces.

00:16:46: You know, what do you think about the way trans people are being covered in The National Press over the last decade?

00:16:56: I

00:16:58: mean, it's a travesty isn't it?

00:16:59: One of the things we quite recently put out was an article as part of our milestone series which looked at some of the most important you know trans rights but also policy shifts and changes.

00:17:11: And how they've been shaped frankly by the media.

00:17:14: so he sort of twisted back seventy years off bad media coverage every angle i think.

00:17:21: one other thing that sometimes talk about uh... The media treats trans people now as very similar to the way it treated gay people in the eighties because of their needs epidemic.

00:17:33: There was that great viral quiz, there made you guess between a gay headline and the trans headline.

00:17:38: they were kind of very difficult to tell apart.

00:17:41: I think one other things has been interesting doing about particular series is tracing back further actually this transphobia on the press.

00:17:47: It's not like repeat what happened in the AIDS crisis for gay men just always being It's always been a part of the modern press to vilify and marginalize others.

00:18:00: Um, it's one of those tactics that drives a lot of sales and clicks for now but back in the day newspaper sale you know was...it's really valuable to wind everyone up because if we're all arguing about stuff then we've got to be reading the news more in order to understand what we're arguing about next on a very kind-of top line level.

00:18:22: but equally, you know to create reasons to buy these papers is a huge part of the tactic.

00:18:29: And I think it's a great shame because university decided journalism and one of things that your taught when doing media course like this was the principles of generalism.

00:18:41: None of them are part of those principles which Yeah,

00:18:53: it's.

00:18:55: I'm astonished by what i see in the national press.

00:18:59: Um...I think how kind of just for me?

00:19:01: Just shut myself down and not listen to anyone was there.

00:19:03: but now if a mental like Tesco when they pick

00:19:05: up Daily Mail

00:19:07: yes a couple days ago It was um attacks on Andy Burnham because he's you turned on trans issues And it's just like a straight-in

00:19:16: and

00:19:17: I Think they feel like its.

00:19:18: uh right we're all done.

00:19:20: Now everything is fixed.

00:19:21: We've won the argument And it's sad.

00:19:24: CrayF has done some really serious journalism on the ILGA, your reclassification and that is the one who puts The UK alongside Russia.

00:19:31: can you tell us a bit about this?

00:19:34: Yeah so Ilga Europe have been doing their rainbow map for quite long time now since two thousand nine.

00:19:42: It basically Has quite an extensive ranking system.

00:19:45: So kind of get points or countries got points different laws they introduced They kind of created a sort utopian country that has all the protections they believe LGBT people should have and then it ranks countries against them.

00:20:00: I guess what's important to take away from UK perspective was in two thousand fifteen, so after just six years at this ranking we were on top spot.

00:20:10: We wanted...we want best place in Europe to be an LGBTQIA plus person who beats rest of Europe.

00:20:19: We're what?

00:20:20: Eleven years on from that.

00:20:21: Uh, we now twenty second and we have dropped right down actually into the middle of the table.

00:20:27: Um but we have slid downwards every year uh successively um sort of since the Since since two thousand and fifteen And part of that is because other countries got better than us initially.

00:20:39: But in more recent years What has been notable Is that our rights Have degraded and so we've been sliding Down the table not Because Other People Are Just Sort Of Getting above us.

00:20:49: And I think that is a really striking tower, you know if you look at the it's a color based system right.

00:20:55: so they've got a lot of green all across Europe and then we've got Russia in red and generally speaking It goes from sort of Red to Green From Russia towards Ireland.

00:21:06: Then you have the UK sort of slap bang on middle.

00:21:09: That has now gone kind of nasty yellow dangerously.

00:21:15: And that's because one of the things, you know it has been saying year-on-year is why our score goes down.

00:21:24: It was what politicians have done for trans people and in terms of rolling back their rights this year Two court cases, which was you know the Supreme Court Which we've already talked about but also there was a court case that reduced parental rights for trans people So that we lost more points on that this year.

00:21:43: Uh, which is why our rankings slid down further.

00:21:47: Talk to you about West Street in.

00:21:49: um he's again man.

00:21:50: It came up through a Labour Party that owes a substantial debt I think to LGBTQ plus activism.

00:21:55: Um

00:21:56: how do you explain what has happened to him?

00:21:59: On um on trans rights And do you think he appreciated the damage he's been doing?

00:22:04: I was reading your newsletter just two weeks ago about the language coming out of West Street and towards the end of his tenure as health secretary.

00:22:13: Yeah, so a couple of weeks ago we did an exclusive with Caroline Lippmann – the bereaved mother of Alice Lippman who died after they took their life.

00:22:25: Been a fantastic campaigner since After many years of asking, West Streeting agreed to sit down with Caroline.

00:22:34: We got a copy of the letter that she sent him afterwards and we also interviewed her about how that meeting went.

00:22:43: I can't tell you how revealing i thought that meeting was in terms of knowing west streeting In a way That maybe didn't before.

00:22:53: uh...I think we've all known You know..in The community for a long time these may be not the best ally.

00:23:00: I think, you know we dug out a clip quite recently in twenty-twenty two when he was talking about how... He was guided by his Christian faith In that meeting with Caroline Littman and I expressed pains because no one actually asked about it or brought up this faith to set out that he wasn't a gold botherer who has issues with trans people.

00:23:25: That's like a direct quote, that was something he said.

00:23:32: He says I'm not right-wing evangelical godbrother who has issues with trans people and Caroline just spoke about how odd it is because she was so unrelated to any of the questions her daughter asked about puberty blockers or health care for young people But he kept bringing it up.

00:23:52: He brought it out several times.

00:23:55: and another thing that he brought up, I think is also was revealing in terms of us finding a little bit more about the way he approaches trans people as these folks.

00:24:03: quite adoringly an almost glamourously off a trans person who knew past you wouldn't be able to tell she was a transperson.

00:24:12: He sort of repeated and Caroline's take on That Was That?

00:24:19: the way he views trans people was that an acceptable trans person is one who looks cisgender, you couldn't possibly tell.

00:24:30: She also said she's very preoccupied with de-transition and it seemed to be everything they were doing made sure those tiny fractions of people changed their minds Often because they're too scared to live in a world where transphobia would be there every day, rather than because they don't want to be.

00:24:52: trans is all the priority as opposed to you know.

00:24:57: The other ninety nine percent of people who?

00:24:59: no Who?

00:25:00: They are No what they won and one support so that they can live happy and safe lives.

00:25:07: There's an astonishing stuff about street in their like absolutely astounding stuff.

00:25:14: So have the brass neck to sit there with the mother of somebody who died by suicide and have that kind of attitude.

00:25:23: I think it tells us everything we need to know about West Street.

00:25:25: There's an argument, I've heard it made in good faith that Labour is governing a country where public opinion has shifted... ...and its their responsibility to read it.

00:25:32: but this isn't what i'm playing devil's advocate here.

00:25:35: How do you respond?

00:25:38: The government must go where people are.

00:25:40: It's got be popular government hasn'it?

00:25:44: This Government played role in shifting that public opinion mood.

00:25:47: So I think it's sort of a nuanced and bit-of-a-naf TV punditry conversation that i don't even really want to entertain, like if you look back a few years ago the general public overwhelmingly supported TransRise which is one of things we would talk about quite a lot... You know?

00:26:06: Twenty twenty, twenty one, twenty two!

00:26:08: If you look at some of the headlines in our archive We're talking how the British people overwhelmingly huge majorities support trans people.

00:26:16: don't believe they should have rights.

00:26:18: That has been chipped away not just by the media and, you know, anti-rights movements but by politicians who've entertained that language so... The idea of having to move with these people is absurd because it's hard for them to reason why those people had moved.

00:26:36: One final question.

00:26:39: Historians are gonna look back on this

00:26:41: period.

00:26:44: A-level history students will be bored to tears with the details of this decade, I think.

00:26:49: But what do you think they would say about Britain?

00:26:53: About... This current government and about people who stayed quiet actually when it really mattered?

00:27:00: Yeah!

00:27:01: One other thing that happens in history is that pendulums swing, right?

00:27:10: And you often see swings from left to right.

00:27:13: We only need to look back within the last hundred years to see that happening several times across Europe.

00:27:20: I think what's difficult at the moment is it quite possible for a first time in very recent history instead of swinging backwards and then bouncing backwards unless they're moving forwards with forward-swinging swung back, but we've moved that whole pendulum back like the whole thing has been lifted up by it.

00:27:44: So I think that's what feels particularly striking about this moment in history.

00:27:50: But i talk about that pendulum because it is also important that It does swing and it always swings back.

00:27:56: And as humans even for us British people who have never gone through a proper revolution We do get fed-up of things changing our lives in ways that means we're more restricted, and can't live as happily or safely.

00:28:17: And I'm very confident there will be a tipping moment because they always is!

00:28:22: That would mean the majority of people realise this distraction with trans people and migrants and gay boys... They were only ever the distraction.

00:28:35: And now things are about for all of us.

00:28:37: Um, and I'm content that will happen.

00:28:41: do you think it will come?

00:28:42: Yeah but i don't think its coming around the door corner next week or even next month.

00:28:47: yeah You know It's interesting to see the rise at.

00:28:50: The Green Party is interested in seeing the rise of the Liberals.

00:28:53: I think it's also worth putting that in the context, you know, for our just parties doing extraordinarily well considering.

00:29:01: You know?

00:29:02: The fact that has very little expertise and is frankly speaking to someone who lives in Kent which is so seen as their first attempt at sort of get... There are potholes everywhere!

00:29:13: And the roads are closing left right and centre and the locals who overwhelmingly voted them in were annoyed and frustrated around a govern.

00:29:21: And so this is

00:29:22: good.

00:29:23: Is it not?

00:29:23: You know, they've got all these councils to fuck now.

00:29:26: Yeah It's what the question I think is whether people realize quickly enough and that's something there's always difficult To see.

00:29:35: you actually looking back at The Greens They were in Brighton for a really long time as the council leaders took them successive times of getting their bins wrong For People to finally vote them out.

00:29:46: We're a fickle, we are a fiffle kind.

00:29:48: And so

00:29:49: I'm sure... Which can bend collections down to monthly people?

00:29:52: that is the point we revolt i think.

00:29:55: in the UK it seems to have been what's made a lot of reform councils up north very unpopular.

00:30:00: yeah and Jamie It's being really good to catch up always A really great perspective from you.

00:30:05: uh if anybody wants To follow The amazing way That You do at queer af like i'm huge fans Of What?

00:30:11: You Do major respect to you guys.

00:30:14: Can you tell them where they can find?

00:30:16: Absolutely.

00:30:16: Yeah, best thing to do... I read the news so you don't have to.

00:30:19: that's the idea of QuoraF.

00:30:21: So yeah every week our newsletter hits your inbox and it is a really easy scan.

00:30:28: about five minute read over your coffee always like hearing how people actually in there unless that's in one.

00:30:33: Head on to.

00:30:34: we are quoraf dot com.

00:30:35: hit the newsletter button.

00:30:37: i think also worth saying as you're listening to a podcast We've got new season for podcasts coming out June.

00:30:42: first It has real mix stories, as well some live events.

00:30:47: It's kind of like everything you need to fight back this Pride season.

00:30:50: so give

00:30:57: that a go.